148 Forming Fathers and Men (Father's Day special with Rusty McKie)

Geoff Holsclaw welcomes Rusty McKie—spiritual director, somatic coach, pastor, author of The Art of Stability, and founder of Steadfast Ministry. 

In this special Father’s Day episode, Geoff and Rusty talk about how seasons of orientation, disorientation, and reorientation shape both midlife discernment and a boy’s transition into manhood. Rusty explains his burden to help fathers and sons navigate adolescence through Man School, a discipleship framework designed to form Jesus-loving men who are whole.

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Transcript

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Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast. I'm Geoff Holsclaw for the Center of Embodied Faith, and we're looking at spiritual formation, neuroscience, all the different ways that we can grow in Christ. Today, I'm very excited to be joined, by a friend who we got to know through some of our trainings and some of the work that he's done.

his name is Rusty McKee. He's a spiritual director, a somo- somatic coach. He's a writer. He's a men's minister. He's a pastor. He wrote The Art of Stability: How Staying Present Changes Everything. He's also the founder of Steadfast Ministry and creator of Man School, which we're gonna get to in a little bit.

This is like a special Father's

Rusty McKie: I have so been looking forward to this.

Geoff Holsclaw: he has, he's a father of boys and everything, so he's really interested in mentoring, so that's why we're having him on today. Rusty, thank you so much for being on with us. Right before we pressed, play, I was like, "Haven't I had you on the podcast before?" And, then you were like, "No." I was like, "Oh, okay." for some reason I thought we've, we've kinda talked, we've had, we just kinda had phone calls. You were a part of one of our early trainings for, attaching to God way before the book came out.

So thank you for being a part of that, and I know you've been a big fan of everything. this is a Father's Day episode, but before we jump into some of that and our concern and care for fathers and sons, and how to grow them in the Lord, could you just talk about, a little bit about yourself?

Rusty McKie: right? 

Geoff Holsclaw: you get into what you were doing?

You

had some sort of call 

Rusty McKie: as are most moments in my life, it's

Geoff Holsclaw: lay that out

Rusty McKie: how I don't

Geoff Holsclaw: two minutes? No.

Rusty McKie: to do a thing,

Geoff Holsclaw: In a couple minutes. That's so easy. Yeah. Summarize your

life. 

Rusty McKie: I'm like, "All right, Lord, fine. I'll do the thing." and that's ultimately growing up, I felt called into ministry, a pastoral ministry, and that call was not something I was excited about.

Got narrowed over time to church planning. I'm like, that sounds really hard. Not very excited about that." Ended up doing all of that for a decade, and as is with most church plants, there's so much beauty, and there's a lot of hard there too, right? you are just on the front line of ministering to people, oftentimes, and in our case, in the margins.

And so that was a beautiful season, 10 years of our life. My intention was to plant a church and then, die in that church. I, had the Eugene Peterson, "I'm staying at this church for the rest of my life." And about year eight, I woke up one morning and had never had this thought come into my mind, but it was the thought, "I don't know if I'm supposed to do this for the rest of my life."

Now, I'd certainly had moments of "Can I keep doing this?" Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: like a,

Rusty McKie: It felt so from the Holy

Geoff Holsclaw: you, which is fine, or did that feel like it was like a Holy Spirit inspired question? Or was it a

Rusty McKie: church, And from there, it was just an incredibly hard season of disorientation and what does this mean and what would I do? And so I had great trust in my elder team, told my wife that day, my elders the next day, my best friends the next day.

got a spiritual director in that process, and I'm just like, "I don't know what to do with this." And so we discerned and prayed for about two years, and finally discerned and decided, "Okay, I think God's actually calling me to a broader ministry, around spiritual formation work." Didn't know what that meant, and as of this year.

So that was about five years ago that I transitioned into that. Steadfast turns five this year, and it's had all kinds of iterations and variations, and we could talk about that or not talk about it. But, yeah, so essentially felt drawn into this world of formation and doing that at a broader level.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah I can't believe we haven't talked about this before, 'cause I had a very similar experience in, it was, like, December 5th of 2017. I'm doing my regular prayer life, devotional life. It wasn't particularly inspired or, spiritual or anything like that, and I all of a sudden got this

Rusty McKie: Oh yeah, that's pretty clear.

Geoff Holsclaw: or however, your theological constructs, s- sift all this.

And the word was literally, "This time next year, you won't be at this church." And it was like, it was, like, out of nowhere. I literally rebuked that word like it's, like it was from the devil, because I, like you, I was like, "I'm just, I'm not climbing a career path. I'm not climbing the pastoral ladder." this is the church God has called me to.

I'd been there for 15 years, and I was like, "I'm just gonna die here," And, and sure enough, there was, like, a sequence of events, and 10 months later, we had moved and moved from outside of Chicago to Grand Rapids. And it was... And it wasn't like, just because it starts with a clear word doesn't mean it's clear, right?

there's all sorts of different things. We're moving a f- whole family, uprooting a family right in the late middle

Rusty McKie: If I could just jump in there real quick, one thing

Geoff Holsclaw: critical time, right? So there was a lot of things to

Rusty McKie: I am.

Geoff Holsclaw: clear and easy and certain.

Rusty McKie: I am. Here we go. So

Geoff Holsclaw: faith. So when you

Rusty McKie: So my spiritual director at the time, he said something that was so profoundly helpful

Geoff Holsclaw: are you turning this, are you trying to spiritually direct me on the... Are you try- Okay,

Rusty McKie: our first half of life

Geoff Holsclaw: He's taking over the podcast

Rusty McKie: we make our five-year, 10-year, 15-year plans, and we work it, right?

And that's good. And he just pointed out second half of life, it tends to go better if we listen for the Lord's leading, take the step of faith, and we just walk into that step with palms open and eyes open saying, "Lord, what's next?" Not trying to map it out or figure it out, but just taking that step of faith.

And so I was so grateful for that as we stepped into a season of truly the greatest unknowns that we've ever had as a family. And we're just five years in, but I can already look back and see, oh, you were doing this and that. But of course, that's so much easier to see in hindsight. Oh, yeah

Geoff Holsclaw: Okay, so now I'm like, we need to have, schedule another podcast to talk about second half of life discernment, vocational discernment, maybe particularly around men, and some of that personal work. But I'm gonna hard transition. You have actually, and this is great too, you have, started creating discipleship material for fathers and sons to work on during that kinda middle to high school age range.

And so instead of second half of life discipleship, you're really doing that, first foundational kind of work. could you just talk about, your burden or ache, in kinda leaning into this area? You call it

Rusty McKie: not too far off from the conversation around first

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah, it's like a really in-depth

Rusty McKie: I think as I have continued to try things

Geoff Holsclaw: what was the ache or the burden

Rusty McKie: on the work that the Lord has given me, I have noticed that I have a particular burden for helping people through transitions. call that change theory, call it transition theory, call it stage theory.

I don't really care what we call it. But, that as Walter Brueggemann talks about in his "Spirituality of the Psalms," that we, go from this place of orientation, all is right in the world, to disorientation, all is not right, and then the Lord takes us through that into a reorientation of a new way of life.

And that map, I just see it everywhere, right? You see it with the dad going through midlife. You see it with the boy transitioning into manhood. So the ache that I felt is, A, I'm a father and I wanna be intentional with my sons. B, I'm looking at the landscape and I'm seeing all this disorientation from boys and their fathers in this very volatile stage of their life, and they're just trying to figure it out, and they're just doing their best, and they're struggling to do it.

And yes, there are a lot of great resources out there, but I just saw a need for how can I step in and provide a framework for formation that helps ease a little bit of that chaos of disorientation and helps everyone embrace the joy of the reorientation into a new season?

Geoff Holsclaw: right, so this is gonna be the real, nuanced and/or difficult question. But then, like in the landscape of this thing called like masculinity or how do we form or transition boys into being men, that comes with kind of a goal

Rusty McKie: initiated. Yeah

Geoff Holsclaw: a standard of what makes someone masculine or some would say, you're born male, but you have to be like crafted into a man or something like that.

So for... In your... Yeah, initi- yeah, so we're talking about initiation, that's right. So what, yeah, what

Rusty McKie: Yeah. similar to what I said

Geoff Holsclaw: war kind of stuff,

Rusty McKie: where I had no intention of

Geoff Holsclaw: There's, " We should just give up on

Rusty McKie: I did not wanna step into this space. The Lord put it on my mind.

Geoff Holsclaw: in all that?

Rusty McKie: Yeah. there

Geoff Holsclaw: so glad you did, 'cause I have all sorts of, opinions on this

Rusty McKie: masculinity. there's a new phrase now, positive masculinity. I don't know exactly the roots or what all that entails, but that sounds nice to me as well. but ultimately what I am hoping to see is we need more men in this world who are whole.

We need whole Jesus-loving, Jesus-following men. And I am just like: How can we do that? And there's all kinds of pitfalls and ditches, again, depending on your tradition, maybe you've heard Luther's old, the drunk on a donkey, he falls off the donkey into one ditch, and he gets on and he falls off into the other.

And there's all kinds of pitfalls here. But I'm just like, man, Jesus is obviously what it means to be a godly man. So if we can make that our North Star and then use whatever other helps and tools we have along the way, to help us get there, then that's, good. That's what we want

 Following. Yeah. Yeah

Geoff Holsclaw: So you said whole Jesus-loving and Jesus-following? Or yeah. So I think those

Rusty McKie: Yeah. So that's where I would get into how I've decided to

Geoff Holsclaw: what are you--

Rusty McKie: of

Geoff Holsclaw: what are markers of being whole

Rusty McKie: of manhood.

Geoff Holsclaw: or fragmented or

Rusty McKie: also talk about it in so many different ways, right? I don't really have original ideas. I'm more of a collector and a combiner of good ideas. And so when I say whole, all of it, all of the healthy that we see in all the different like themes of life.

And so if you wanna talk about psychological wholeness, mental, emotional wholeness, spiritual wholeness, physical wholeness, we're embodied souls, right? it's a whole man who is fully alive to God, and he's living life in color. Not a perfect man, but a man who's in process. a man who is walking into, and maybe this is the time to talk about it, into, more of the archetypes of a man that are in the heart of every man.

Yeah

Geoff Holsclaw: let's... Yeah, let's talk... okay, I'm so curious. I have so many... Again, I have lots of opinions. So we'll position this one last time then because, on the one hand, I see more of the cultural warrior, maybe we could just say really conservative, visions of masculinity, of m- men of action, to go Princess Bride.

decisive, sometimes combative, on, the one hand. and then I also hear a lot of literature that will say something like, following Jesus is against all that," or, I sometimes run across the more progressive or moderate kinda side where their view of a man following Jesus is 

Rusty McKie: Sure, sure

Geoff Holsclaw: What's the right word? There's so many, wrong, toxic words right now. But it's, s- it just means, following Jesus will... And your gender doesn't matter. a woman or a man both could follow Jesus, and you just have to follow Jesus, and that's the point. And so sometimes it's just follow

Rusty McKie: Yeah, I'm trying

Geoff Holsclaw: is.

And then other people are like, "Oh, this is real kind of heavy-handed masculinity." So where... Like, how do you

Rusty McKie: I think the issue

Geoff Holsclaw: I assume you're not n- either one, I assume. and I know this is probably gonna end up with the, archetypes, so maybe that's the

answer. 

Rusty McKie: somebody could say "What is a man?" And on the one hand, I think we can point to some very clear things that, this is a man from my perspective, like that includes biology, right?

That includes that God has created us male and female in his image. So we could go down that trail and that path and follow that line of thinking for a bit. there's also just this dynamic to it where, to say what is a man, y- you can't just do generics, you have to get specifics. So like for our sons, we can't just say, "Here's what it means to generically be a man."

That's true, but we also need to help you discern your unique calling as a man. we, can't pigeonhole you into this, ca- caricature, which I think is often what happens in these conversations. anytime you try to define a thing, you end up creating a stereotype or a caricature of the thing.

And so you have to be able to hold with nuance all of the things, but also not reject all of those things. And that is where ultimately, even though I a little bit was like, "Should I use archetypes?" I'm like, "I don't know if that's the best." But as I thought about it more, it's I think it actually is really helpful because it's helping us to see dynamics of a man and then say, "Can we hold them in tension?"

so a lot of folks in Christian circles who have used archetypes, they have made it more of a stage theory, and they've said, "You're a lover when you're young, and then you're a warrior in your 20s and 30s, and then you'll become a king," that's the one that folks will use, "and then you'll become a sage in your old age."

there's goodness in that, but that's not how I'm using the archetypes. I'm saying no, the five archetypes that I've come up with, these characteristics of a man, they're in the heart of every man, and we need all of them to mature equally so that they balance one another out. So for instance... Yeah Yeah, Exactly. Exactly. And a big

Geoff Holsclaw: go into the five arc- archetypes, a- and just kinda

Rusty McKie: need

Geoff Holsclaw: it over. So this is part of the answer of what does it mean to

Rusty McKie: to initiate

Geoff Holsclaw: maturity or integration between all of these

five. 

Rusty McKie: they need an older man to help a boy understand this is part of what he's called to as a man. They need that older man to initiate through the process of talking about it, and then they need an older man to look him in the eyes and to bless him and to say, "You actually can do this.

You have what it takes." And so it's not just we can't just have peers doing this. That's a whole other conversation around Western culture that would probably take more time than we want. so all that to say, the five archetypes, types that I've come up with for Man School is year one, men are warriors who fight to bless, not curse.

So each has a overarching theme with it. they're warriors who fight to bless, not curse. They are lovers, year two, who desire to commit, not consume. They are workers. Yep, it's a good time. I'm working on it right now. they are workers who strive to serve, not succeed. They are monks who retreat to

Geoff Holsclaw: I like that

Rusty McKie: not escape.

And they finally, year five, are sages who live by wisdom, not folly Monk in Sage.

Geoff Holsclaw: those last two didn't have alliteration, but I will give you a pass on that. that's really great. Okay, so we have warrior, lover, worker, monk, and sage, and these are aspects, parts or archetypes, that are in all of us. And some people, it, so some arc- and you- I don't know if you're, like, pulling in from, Jungian psychology.

archetypes usually then have, the shadows, so I think you were kinda naming the

Rusty McKie: to bless, not curse.

Geoff Holsclaw: don't we just... 'Cause I know you really focused on the first two so far, but why don't we just kinda go through those two. You said the warrior,

Rusty McKie: 100%.

Geoff Holsclaw: and then I forgot the two, but they were great. Fights. Bless, not curse. Okay. and that cursing would be more of

Rusty McKie: And part of that is trying to push back against

Geoff Holsclaw: does it mean then to fight, 

Rusty McKie: war 

Geoff Holsclaw: in order to bless, not curse? The, f- the idea of putting fighting and blessing

Rusty McKie: and aggressive and fight and take back the kingdom. And it's Jesus wasn't really fighting for a kingdom. He was kinda dying for a kingdom.

And Jesus was a very self-differentiated man. Jesus was, he was not against taking a couple of cords and binding them together into a whip and going and driving out the money changers out of the temple. Jesus did have some moments where he said some very hard, fighting words to the Pharisees, but his fighting was ultimately and always in order to try to get through hard hearts so that they could be part of the kingdom too, right?

They were words to bless and not words to curse. And first two years, I really wanted to start with lover. I'll just say that. I really wanted to start with lover because if we were to look at all five, and if you were to say, which one is-- I- if we had to put one at the center, I don't know that we have to, but if, you had to, say, I think lover would be the one because we are called to love God with our heart, mind, soul, and strength, love our neighbor as ourselves.

We're created in the image of God, who is love, right? lover is so central. However, as I'm thinking about this from a pedagogical standpoint, I'm like, if you start with lover with a 13-year-old boy, like you're not getting too far in man school. However, a 13-year-old boy, they're starting to ask questions.

Am I strong? Do I have what it takes? Do I have agency? Can I impact my environment? Can I do that for good, right? Oh, I can do that for ill. And so there's a lot of energy, even hormonally, that's starting to just fire off in a 13-year-old boy's body. And so that warrior years, hey, let's take that energy and let's ch- let's recognize it always can be channeled for good, for blessing, or if we're not intentional, it's gonna go towards cursing those around us.

Geoff Holsclaw: When I think so many, like initiation rites, like across the world, in many different cultures, whether they say it outright or not, there is the sense of like at right around that age, we have to harness the, energy, the fighting, the, But it, it- to make it constructive for the life of the community.

Otherwise, if it's left unharnessed, it would be destructive. And so there is that kind of sense starting with warrior is the felt

Rusty McKie: helping a boy and a dad, again, that's

Geoff Holsclaw: am I gonna do with all this power? I wanna

Rusty McKie: For the boy, for the

Geoff Holsclaw: against my, parents and I'm, I wanna do my own thing and don't tell me what to

Rusty McKie: them realize that is just normal, and it's actually God's design, and it's actually good for a boy to start self-differentiating and figuring out who he is.

And then to have the dad in a way that's not combative or confrontational as well, come along, use his strength to come along his son and bless his son in that moment of transition rather than curse him. that's huge. Dads need that. Dads need that. Yeah. So then lover, this whole-- Once you kinda get that base, and it's fascinating too, y- if you're talking shadow side and all that s- all that jazz.

If you have a warrior without a lover, then they become a savage, and all kinds of bad stuff happens, right? So you have to have all of these different archetypes. They need to be growing in maturity side by side and together. Not just, I wanna be clear about this, not just for a boy between 13 and 18, right?

it's not "All right, son, you've graduated man school and now you're a man." No, it's I, as your father or as your father figure, I have initiated these aspects of your manhood. I have blessed them, and now let's continue to grow in them for the rest of our lives. So part of my subversive goal in this is yes, to help boys, but also to help the dads who never had a dad walk them through this stuff too.

And for them to see, man, I'm naturally geared towards some of these, So warrior energy, like we're not going out and grabbing axes and being Vikings th- these days, hopefully, right? But that like strategy, that kinda entrepreneurial energy that we see out there that like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna build something.

I'm gonna fight for. you look at more mercy ministry, like I am going to, fight for justice in this world where I see injustice in the world. that's warrior energy. That's good stuff. And then other dads are gonna have more lover, more worker, more sage, or more monk, right? So we're all gonna have areas where we have some natural propensities.

We're all gonna have areas where we need to grow, and it's about growing in maturity and into wholeness in those Good.

Man, so within the, within Man

Geoff Holsclaw: a little called out 'cause I have,

Rusty McKie: connections, there's quarterly challenges, and then there's an end of the year

Geoff Holsclaw: so could we throw axes as part of the warrior training? Is that okay?

Rusty McKie: and throw s- like do things like that if that's who you are as a dad and if that's who your son is as a son, right?

with all of it, I'm giving multiple suggestions so that you can kinda connect with personalities. but yeah, do things that are physical. Do things that you can do together that's tough and a little hard, and then you can talk about it and connect it to the lessons that you've been talking about on a weekly basis.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So I'm so glad you like... So there's weekly conversations, quarterly things, and then annual ceremonies that you're helping people walk through. So I think a lot of dads, 

Rusty McKie: Yes

Geoff Holsclaw: might be listening to this or someone's, thinking, "Oh, I have someone in mind who maybe, who should do this, and they have kids of the right age."

But I know a lot of dads, have trepidation. "I didn't get anything like this, and I'm not equipped or able." I know for myself, there's so much I didn't get from my own father, and I was just m- I had to make it up as I would go along. it's a whole different conversation, right? But I... Every time my kids got to a certain kind of like developmental stage or change or I have to figure out, then I had to like grieve that I didn't get something from my own dad that I also had to 

Rusty McKie: was 

Geoff Holsclaw: out how to

Rusty McKie: to help dads

Geoff Holsclaw: So what would you say to someone who feels kinda intimidated or disqualified from knowing like how to do

Rusty McKie: just busy as dads and just as people, right? And so I've really designed it to say, "Hey, it's less about these big massive moments.

It's more about all the little moments. it's less about these big lectures. It's more about the little connections." And so Man School's developed to basically have micro moments of coaching that lead to a lot of little micro moments of connection. I think I could also say this about Man School, that it is a connection first or an attachment first curriculum, So I look at, oh man, yeah, that's what we need. That's what our boys need. They don't want lectures from us as dads. They wanna know dad loves them, right? They wanna know dad's proud of them. And so as I look at the landscape of options, it's we-- what we need in a pathway, in a framework for this type of formation work, what we need is that connection.

we need the clarity around what it means to be a man, so that's kinda the general stuff that we've talked about. And then we need work on the specific calling of the boy. who has God called you to be? So not just men in general, but you as a man, right? And so all three of those things need to happen, but they're gonna happen so much more smoothly if there's the connection, if there's the attachment.

And so the coaching is geared around helping dads know like this, is daunting. Yes, it is. This is work. You have to keep showing up. You have to commit to this. And it's not rocket science. You can do this. You can do this. And here's how you can do it. Here's how you can work on that attachment connection, which then just covers a multitude of foibles, right?

Covers a multitude of sins. It covers a multitude of whatever you need to overcome my sneaky goal, Geoff, here's my sneaky goal that I'm gonna make known to everybody,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Rusty McKie: is that by the end of Man School, a father and son have such a deep

Geoff Holsclaw: the dads too.

Rusty McKie: such a deep relationship that when the son grows up and he hits something crazy in life, that his first thought is not gonna be, "Let me call my counselor."

But his first thought, and not that I have anything against counseling. Counseling's great. That can be the boy's second call, right? but as a grown man that he'll say, "I'm gonna call my dad, and I'm gonna talk to my dad through this." I think that's what everybody wants, to have a dad where we know that we can talk about anything.

So Man School and micro moments and micro connections is training that so that can take place into a boy's future. Ah.

Geoff Holsclaw: I love that. I'm writing that down. I gotta type, I gotta type, type, That's so great. do you have any last word of, encouragement or thought or

just, 

Rusty McKie: in line with your work and in line with your podcast,

Geoff Holsclaw: drop on us?

Rusty McKie: what a gift it would be for us to have such a tight attachment relationship with our boys that they call us for the rest of their lives and we're here for them and can continue that close relationship for the rest of our lives. That's a wonderful goal.

That's a brilliant goal. I want that for every dad I meet. More than that, how powerful and special if our boys can have that kind of secure attachment with us that then sets them up in their lives for the relationship they need the most, which is a secure attachment with God. And so man school is some work.

It's hard. my son and I right now, we're like three weeks behind because things have been going on and this week we're like, "Okay, we gotta crank three weeks out this week so that we can get back on pace." Like life happens. Life happens and it's hard to stay consistent, but I am so committed to it because I love my boy and I'm committed to him.

I want us to have a close relationship, but even more than that, I wanna put all of the cards just, stacked in his favor so that when life disorients him beyond teenage disorientation, that he knows that he has a loving father that he can go to who will help him and attach to him in a way to get through anything

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah, that's so great. the role, not just of a father, but a mother too, is the role of parents. at our best, the good enough parent is supposed to model and foster secure attachment, and then for- so that spiritually it could be handed off to the true source of all of our needs and attachment, desires, which is the Lord.

so yeah, that's so powerful. two

Rusty McKie: Different colors.

Geoff Holsclaw: one's a question. One is if people aren't, watching, Rusty and I both are wearing polka dot shirts. That was not planned, but I think great minds, great fashion senses. Yes, different colors. I had to re- I have a blue one that's similar to what you had, but I had to retire it.

It's getting s- this one's kinda getting old. I put a thumb... like, when a shirt gets old, you're, like, tucking it in, and then your thumb just goes right through the fabric, and you're like, "Oh, yep, that 10-year-old shirt's, it's a goner." So I had a blue one, retired that one. This one's probably very close.

Rusty McKie: Steadfast M-I-N, as in

Geoff Holsclaw: th- the second question then is, where can people find your work at Steadfast Ministries, and then especially Man School?

Rusty McKie: as in male. Steadfastmin.com. And then for Man School, they can go to manschool.co and find that work there. That's correct

Geoff Holsclaw: So that's steadfastmen.com, but then manschool.co.

Rusty McKie: Thank you as well for everything you and Cyd do.

Geoff Holsclaw: you so much for being on today. Thank you for caring so much about fathers, for sons, and for whole families, and thank you for the gift of your, ministry 

Rusty McKie: come on down. It's nice most of the year.

Geoff Holsclaw: And if I ever am in Florida, which I'm never in Florida, but we gotta hang out sometime,

Rusty McKie: Yeah, it's, Florida, is preheating. We're just preheating

Geoff Holsclaw: I'm not coming down now. Now right now it's June, so I assume it's sticky and hot, so I'm not com- well, actually, I don't know exactly where you are, but

Rusty McKie: Ah, thank you, my friend

Geoff Holsclaw: No. Oh, all This is the perfect time to be in Michigan. I'm where I want to be at this time of year. All right, Lord bless you, and thanks for all your work