149 Worship & Awe as Aspects of Mental Health (with Joshua Knabb)

Mental health resources increasingly focus on the self as the antidote to psychological suffering, offering strategies for prioritizing self-care and self-esteem. Yet as people focus more on the self, their suffering may actually worsen. Clinical psychologist Joshua Knabb argues that when people focus less on the self and more on God, their mental and spiritual health may improve.

Clinical psychologist and California Baptist University professor Dr. Joshua Knabb joins the Attaching to God podcast to talk about his new book, Worship and Awe in Christian Psychology: How Centering God Transforms Mental and Spiritual Health.

In this episode, Dr. Knabb contrasts Buddhist mindfulness with Christianity’s relational telos of communion with the Triune God, talks about learning to relate differently to suffering rather than trying to eliminate it, and connects Acceptance and Commitment Therapy to desert spirituality themes like watchfulness and staying in one’s “cell.”

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Transcript

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Geoff Holsclaw: Mental health resources increasingly focus on the self as the antidote to psychological suffering, offering strategies to prioritize self-care and self-esteem and different things like that. And yet, as people focus more on their self, oftentimes their suffering seems to increase. But clinical psychologist Joshua Nab argues that when people focus less on their selves and more on God and on awe, that their mental and spiritual health improves.

That's what we're talking about today here on the Attaching to God podcast. Thank you for joining us again. As always, we're produced by the Center for Embodied Faith. Dr. Joshua Nab is a board-certified clinical psychologist, a professor of psychology, and the director of their psychology program at California Baptist University in Riverside.

He also serves as the editor for the Journal of Psychology and Christianity, and he has authored many books and done all sorts of amazing things. His most recent book is Worship and Awe in Christian Psychology: How Centering God Transforms Mental and Spiritual Health. Dr. Nab, thank you so much for being on with us today.

Joshua Knabb: Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, yeah. I was just saying before we got on, I kinda got introduced to some of your work through the Christian Psychology Institute, and Eric Johnson and others. and I was like, worship and awe as part of spiritual and mental health, this is amazing topic. So we reached out. Thank you for making a little bit of time.

I'm so glad you got your grades done, and that you feel a little more relieved to be here. How did you, besides this specific topic, how did you feel a calling and move into this field of Christian psychology, of being a, professor and a practicing, psychologist? How did that all kinda work out in your life, just as we get started?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah. Yeah. it started when I, started re- reading about, getting trained in mindfulness actually, which comes from the Buddhist tradition. And so mindfulness now is everywhere. When I was in graduate school, it was really gaining a lot of momentum, and I was fascinated by mindfulness and of course digging into the history.

it's, anchored to the Buddhist tradition. There have been some attempts to try to secularize it, but I still think it has its Buddhist roots. And so I started asking the question, "What does Christianity have to offer?" I found that a lot of times there would be Christian psychologists Chris- trying to Christianize, we might say secularize Buddhist mindfulness and I thought to myself, what does our own tradition offer?

Can we go straight to our own tradition rather than trying to adjust something from another, religious tradition?" And so that led me down the path of really starting out, discovering centering prayer, which of, course, if, anyone, is familiar with that, it developed in the 1970s, a few Trappist monks.

But they drew from the Cloud of Unknowing. And then so I started reading original, we might say classic Christian spiritual writings. I was fascinated by the Cloud of Unknowing. and then even going back further and further, going all the way back to, of course, we have, the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, we have then the early desert Christians.

And so just seeing this rich heritage of practices that, Christian psychologists haven't, I might say, operationalize, haven't operationalized and then researched in the same way that it took secular psychologists to do that with mindfulness. you define it, you create some scales for measurement, you manualize it as an intervention, and then of course, mindfulness is everywhere now.

And I thought to myself, "Could I do something similar inspired by that trajectory from within the Christian tradition for Christian populations so that I could help, to walk alongside people who are

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Oh, I love that. The, I had, an experience. I remember, it's probably 15 years ago, I was in a small group with a gentleman, and he was decon- he wouldn't use that language, deconstructing faith, but he had a lot of, church hurt, is what we'd call it now, b- as well as, just a lot of deep trauma, going all the way back to his childhood.

And he was veering into, Buddhist meditation and mindfulness, and, he just was like, "There's nothing like it in Christianity." And I was like, "Yes, there is. We just l- you know, us low-church evangelicals just don't know anything about it." I w- but I was like, "There's a rich tradition of these types of things."

So be- maybe then we'll kinda do this, this interview in reverse, 'cause I was gonna ask you about all this stuff at the end. But I think it probably leads up into your current work in worship and awe. But you've been working in this kind of area of Christian meditation maybe, and its therapeutic kind of, application.

Could you kinda talk about that a little bit? How do you see... You were talking about Buddhist mindfulness. How is that different than Christian meditation? If, and, or, and use whatever words you would use. Those are just the words I'm using.

Joshua Knabb: Yeah. in, in, in, Buddhism, there's of course, mindfulness meditation, which is an insight meditation. we might call it open monitoring, meditation to gain insight into the three marks of existence. The, there's no, individual self, life is suffering, and everything's impermanent.

And w- what I found is that really the telos, the purpose, the ultimate aim is vastly different in these practices. we're trying to gain insight into those three marks of existence in Buddhism, whereas in Christianity it's, more of a relational telos. It's, communion with God, we might say.

And just like in, in Buddhist mindfulness, it-- as we have westernized it, we've tried to, try to actually reduce symptoms through it, which is not the ultimate aim. I think we likewise need to recognize what the ultimate aim is in Christian practices, which is really a, deeper relationship with God.

And, as a byproduct, we-- some of the symptoms that we struggle with may, remit or go away or, but they may not. but the idea would be as, a relational practice, very different from, Buddhism's focus on suffering. for us, we're walking with God through suffering. I might describe, Christian mental health as if we look at it from a Trinitarian perspective, to, really be empowered by the Holy Spirit who offers comfort, as the counselor, as the comforter, to walk with the Son who offers grace, home to the Father, who offers love.

and that's g- kind of partly borrowing from John Owen's, Communion with the Triune God, that book. But from a Trinitarian perspective, that we're walking with God, through suffering, and as a result, we can begin to relate differently to it. And so that's where I try to, bridge spiritual and mental health-related kinds of ways of understanding these things because there's so much in our tradition about what to do about suffering.

And I think these Christian practices offer us, some ways to, look at suffering differently and relate differently to suffering as well.

Geoff Holsclaw: okay, now we're gonna be really off topic, but you brought up suffering. So if, and this is broad strokes, and you're a practicing, clinical psychologist. If a Buddhist perspective is just to, life is suffering, and you were saying like a Christian perspective, which I'd agree with, is there's life that comes through the suffering.

but a lot of, and we'll just go with pop psychology. A lot of pop psychology is there should be no suffering. We should relieve all suffering. Suffering is a problem that we can solve. In some fa- I know no one says it that way, but that is the feel. if there's suffering, then something's wrong, and we should over, kinda overcome it.

Is that ... So could you kinda, are those kinda three kinda broad kinda streams we're all s- 'cause it feels like life is suffering, that's, if that's the Buddhist one. That's not certainly what Am- most Americans are, like, looking at. So it's somewhere between those other two. and is there a conflict there, a little bit, between those, a pop psychology view and a Christian view?

Joshua Knabb: I think so. I think, pop

Geoff Holsclaw: That was a leading question technically, 'cause I think there's a conflict. I'm always talking about how the spiritual formation and therapy should work together, but they're not exactly the same thing

Joshua Knabb: Yeah, no, I, so I would say w- what's interesting is m- I would say there's a period of time where in clinical psychology, we were very preoccupied with reducing or eliminating symptoms, i- in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, the DSM. and so even, treatment plans for managed care companies was about reducing or eliminating.

I think we're in a different place, even in secular clinical psychology now, where we're talking more about relating differently to our symptoms, not trying to make it go away. So the fancy term is called experiential avoidance, and it's this idea that trying to avoid my symptoms causes more suffering than the symptoms in and of themselves.

And so a lot of newer approaches are about, a- and, for example, one newer approach is, self-compassion. to, be moved by my own suffering and, kind to myself in the midst of suffering versus trying to eliminate it. And so I think we've corrected course in a lot of ways by seeing...

Another example would be this idea that our emotions are actually important signals, even our painful ones, that reveal important information to us. So we don't wanna get, rid of sadness. We don't wanna get rid of fear or anxiety or anger, or even the moral emotions of guilt and shame. We wanna try to understand what they are revealing to us and relate to them differently, to make room for them from a place of compassion so that they can be a part of, the fullness of life.

And so I think that... A- and I would draw a connection with in Christianity that we have countless examples in scripture of, from the lament Psalms to Jesus, ex- experiencing the full gamut of emotions, from anger to sadness, even, in the garden, this anticipatory sort of anxiety about what was next.

And I think we have example after example from both contemporary clinical psychology and Christianity that, we need to learn to be with our own pain and suffering and relate to it differently, not try to eradicate it. Now, from a Christian perspective, we'd look at the beatific vision, this idea that someday there will be no more suffering.

And so on, in this life as we head home, so to speak, we can endure suffering because, we're looking out to the final destination. but I think in either case, from secular psychology and Christianity, it's a great time, I think, to ha- have a deeper understanding of what to do about suffering because, early on in my training, I realized that trying to get rid of it wasn't gonna work.

It wasn't... I, was tr- trying to do techniques with clients, and they were coming back week after week, and they were still feeling depressed and anxious and I realized early on, and in my own personal life as someone who, suffered greatly as a adolescent into my adulthood, realizing that we needed to do something differently with suffering.

So the, pop psychology version is still out there, and I think people still expect For it to go away, coming to therapy, you might have a client coming into therapy saying, "Help me get rid of X." And then I think successful therapy, is exiting therapy saying, "Thank you for helping me relate differently to X, not get rid of X."

Whether that's a painful emotional experience or an intrusive memory from a traumatic experience, or maybe a nagging, ruminative or worry- worrying thought. to try to get rid of these things doesn't work, but we can relate differently to them and invite God to be with us in them.

Geoff Holsclaw: Okay. Yeah, about, I think about a year ago, we had Andrew Root, on, and he had a book on evangelism in an, age of anxiety. And he says that, the most important thing the church can do these days is ask, "What are you doing with your suffering?"

Joshua Knabb: That's right

Geoff Holsclaw: good answer for that.

and, and I thought that was very compelling, rather than saying, something like long-term, "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life." But short-term, like saying, what are you... How, is your, suffering management system going? And, can we witness to, alternatives?"

I know you have also worked in the acceptance commitment, therapy I think. Did I say that right, ACT? Yep. and, i- does that kinda fit in with, the vision you were just explaining, and could you just explain a little bit more about that?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah. So ACT, is what we might call a contemporary third wave CBT. the first wave was just kind of behavioral approaches. The second wave was what I talked about before, trying to reduce or eliminate, symptoms through changing the way we think to try to change the way we feel. That's just simply put, as a cursory explanation.

But then third wave is introducing mindfulness and acceptance, this idea that we can't necessarily eliminate, some of these symptoms, but we can relate differently to them. So ACT, the acronym is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. The idea would be that we can be more accepting of our inner world in order to...

There's a huge in order to there, in order to live out our values. The idea is that if we try to spend all of our time, reducing or eliminating our inner, struggles, one, it doesn't work. an example would be commonly used in ACT, the beach ball metaphor. This idea if you try to hold a beach ball underwater, it's just gonna pop up with more force, and if I try to not think about certain thoughts, I end up thinking about them more.

If I try to, run from my emotions, I'm gonna only end up suffering more. And so the idea would be that there's all kinds of strategies for being more accepting of the inner world so that we can spend our time living out our values, these principles for living to be, to be loving and compassionate and giving.

And in Christianity, we might call them virtues, moral behaviors, the fruit of the spirit, et cetera. And yeah, the idea would be that I'm more outwardly focused on, interacting with others, living a full life, rather than being preoccupied with the inner world, given, one, that keeps me sidelined in life, if we use a sports metaphor, but two, it's not realistic to fully try to get rid of those, kinds of experiences.

Geoff Holsclaw: I find so much resonance with what you just said about ACT and then the, like the Desert Fathers and Mothers, and how they would notice the passions, and they'd notice the movements of their soul, in a, They'd use a word like humility, and, attentiveness and things like that. not as much like acceptance.

But I think it was, doing the same kind of thing. it was kinda taking a step back, looking at your mental life, taking some inventories, and then trying to choose some paths through them, but without kind of a scolding, judgmental kind of perspective. I don't know if you've interacted with...

I, feel like you h- have looked at some of that church fathers, Evagrius and others. I don't know if you have more to add right now about that.

Joshua Knabb: Yeah. I actually in my Faith-Based ACT book that, I have a book for clinicians and a workbook, and they're both in their second edition. But I actually make connections between ACT, the ACT processes, and the early Desert Christians, including, for example, ACT would talk about acceptance.

the early Desert Christians talked a lot about, what's been translated as patience or a hopeful endurance, the Greek word hupomone. I love that word. it's this idea for them of staying put in your cell, not fleeing from your cell. The cell, of course, was a place they lived in, but also represented the inner world or was symbolic of the inner world.

And so not to flee those inner experiences, but to stay put. and so I think there's such desert wisdom there, what we might call it a rich desert psychology. another, term I love from the early Desert Christians would be watchfulness or the Greek word nepsis, right? This idea of being more watchful of the inner world.

I'm a huge, advocate and fan of, personally and professionally, of the Jesus Prayer, which is really about if going back to the Philokalia, which was written, by monks in the e-- the Orthodox Church. give a lot... They give a lot of instructions on the Jesus Prayer, and they link it to this watchfulness as I'm reciting the prayer, right?

That I'm watchful of the inner world, watchful of the, what became the, seven deadly sins. and so yeah, I, think there's so many connections there about, a Christian psychology and some of the contemporary, perspectives out there on what to do with suffering, from a, from a wiser place to, to not flee from the cell, to not try to hit the ejection se- seat or run away or, but instead to face.

and for Christians, we can because God is with us. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Oh, that's so great. The... I could talk for hours about that. for those of you, listening on the podcast, we have a sub-series called, Voices from the Kallia, and that's, from the cell. So we have, another guy who comes on regularly who, speaks all about desert spirituality.

he works with psychological safety and things, also. okay, so we could talk about that for a while. but... And I- now I gotta go buy some more of your books. But let's get onto the topic at hand then. So you talk about worship and awe has kinda become a much more, in vogue kinda topic, I think, a little bit these days if you're in the positive psychology circles.

but could you start talking about how... could you just define, let's define terms, 'cause, your, argument is that worship and awe is actually positive for your mental and spiritual health. So could we, kinda unpack what do you mean by worship and what do you mean by awe?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah. So I think I, I would say that i- you know, awe in psychology, if we start there, is there's two major components. It's vastness, this idea that what I'm in, in awe of is much, much bigger than me. and there are three main kinda triggers for that, which I'll talk about in a second. But, it's vastness, and then it's incomprehensibility, this idea that I can't even comprehend, I can't wrap my mind around this thing, this person, this experience.

and there's a need to then, what we would call in psychology, accommodate. So it's kinda Piaget. So Piaget talked about as kids, we, assimilate things into existing structures. So if I, see a zebra, and I already know what a horse is, I'd say, "Oh, a zebra is a striped horse," right? So I, assimilated it to...

But with, awe, we don't have a, current, schema or structure to fit the experience into, and so we have to adjust, psychologically speaking. and so what's interesting about awe, I, originally wanted to call the, book that I, just published, Big God, Small Self, because there's this, this, ability to, from a Christian perspective, see God as much bigger than I can even comprehend, which is a good thing.

and when we try to fit God into, assimilate God into previous structures like this, striped horse, it, we lose out on, the fullness of life. And so awe we can actually be triggered by, cognitive kinds of experiences. So it might be a theory, it might be, Einstein's theory of relativity, it might be a big idea.

It might be, what we might call, physical or sensory experiences, going out into nature, standing in front of, a huge structure, a human-made structure. it could be, then relational, like being in awe of somebody at a sporting event, at, the Super Bowl or NFL game or...

But the idea would be that, we're in awe of these things, and these are the triggers that lead to this vastness and then this incomprehensibility. And, awe is a, an emotion. it's supposed to be a positive emotion, although we can be in awe of something like a tornado, and depending on how, close in terms of proximity we are to it, that might be a terrifying experience.

But for the most part, awe sh- is a positive, emotion that helps us to, I think, see ourselves in right perspective. and what I think is so amazing about awe is that there's a... there can be a crowding out effect. We can spend all of our life trying to reduce negative emotions, or we can pursue some of these more positive emotions, which can help us to kinda pivot or shift.

and so I think awe has that purpose, which is why I think there's a lot of research that links it to other positive psychological experiences like wellbeing, like meaning and purpose in life, because it does have that ability. There's b- even been some research, I think, on awe and, depression and things like that.

But it has this ability to help us to see the bigger picture of life so that we're not so preoccupied with ourselves. Now, how does that fit into worship? I would say from a Christian... Now, th- those two are not connected really in the psychology literature. but me, as a Christian, I'm thinking about what's the vehicle through which Christians pursue awe?

it's, it's, worship. And so we might say worship is, this, reverential, praise, awe-inducing praise of who God is, w- what God has done and will do, and it's anchored to scripture, because we worship, follow, serve a, a personal God. And so from a Christian perspective, worship is so much more than just, fog machines on Sunday morning, right?

With the worship band. But I like to think of worship as if we, think of mindfulness as something applied to all of m- life, I think of worship as worshipfulness. That as Christians, we're not, mindful necessarily from a Buddhist perspective, we're worshipful. I could remember watching a, really famous, a prolific author, Buddhist, monk, and he was walking down this path, it was a documentary on Buddhism, and he would go up to a tree and kind of touch the tree, and he had all these followers.

probably like dozens and dozens of followers just following him where he would go and he looked to me like he was worshiping, right? And but for him, it was mindfulness. it was being mindful, present moment, non-judgmental awareness, using sensory experiences, not overly relying on the human mind and being on autopilot with our thinking and preoccupied.

He was in the moment, and for Christians, I think that's worshipfulness. And we can do that through all of life. We can be worshipful in family life. We can w- be worshipful in congregational life or work life. We can practice God's presence and have this ongoing conversation with him in a worshipful kind of a way to then induce awe as a byproduct of that worshipfulness.

So in the book, I talk about really we're always, and this is inspired by A.W. Tozer's writings, but he would say that our purpose is to worship. We were designed to worship And, and so all of life is an act of worship. And so can we do that in order to induce awe? and I think we can through various Christian disciplines and this awareness that God is at the center of all of his existence.

And in the book, I basically talk about, we're always worshiping something and, and we need-- we-- there's this desire to be in awe of what we worship, but that I think we're often miserable because we're worshiping the wrong things. it goes all the way back to the fall. are we worshiping ourselves, trying to be at the center of the garden?

Are we trying to worship others or worship things? But the, desire to worship and be in awe of what we worship is a good thing. It comes from God. It's just, really pivoting from creation worship to creator worship. And once we do that, we can enjoy all of life from a, awful, A-A-W-E-F-U-L, not, but, an awe- awe-- or I should say awe-filled, awe-filled, moment-by-moment experience, but it's just being in right relationship with God.

Geoff Holsclaw: I always make a play on those words too. is our life awful or awful?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: so it works a little better in writing. But

Joshua Knabb: Yes, that's

Geoff Holsclaw: Is it, it- Is it are we focused on ourself and kinda what we don't have and the negative things, and are we ruminating so it's awful? Or are we looking outwardly?

Are we looking up and beyond? I was, are we looking backwards at the things that have happened to us and inwards and how it's affected us, or are we looking outward to God and God's creation as well as forward to the consummation of our salvation, right? And so I think

Joshua Knabb: That's right

Geoff Holsclaw: Not that we should never look backward or inward, right? But if that's all we're doing, and if that becomes the accent, then you kinda have this negative spiral, that, that's difficult. could you kinda... You, named the three kinda cognitive triggers. Again, these aren't like emotional triggers that set you off, but they're just That's like psychology speaking, right? Four ways, like events or things that get triggered. So there's these cognitive or conceptual pathways, physical, or behavioral, and then like social. How does that fit together with, like awe and worship, and then how can we cultivate, those things in our lives?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah. I think from a cognitive perspective, God gave us a human mind to think deeply about things and to meditate and to ponder. we might even, use the word ruminate. We're always, I think, dwelling on something. It's about what we choose to dwell on, to ruminate on, to ponder.

is it, unhelpful rumination, dwelling on a past conversation? Is it looking out into the future worrying, ch- anticipating something that's gonna go wrong? Or can we meditate on, chew on, G- God's word, the Bible, who God is, what God has done. one of my favorite passages, really is, Psalm 46:10, "Be still and know I'm God," right?

this, idea of that, that, I can be still. the, Hebrew word there is rafa, something along the lines of rafa, which is like a cease striving, or in that context, it's lay down your weapons on the battlefield and know who I am, that I'm so much bigger, I'm sovereign.

And so can we chew on, meditate on, be still from a place of awe, worshipful awe, and pivot from spending, one more minute going over that conversation where I said the wrong thing at the party, right? or have it, having that argument play out in my head, of, how things are gonna go when I get home and, and have a conversation with my wife.

Or can I pivot to, meditating on as a really a, way to cultivate worshipful awe of God. And so it's just this idea that we're always f- we're always meditating on something, but we can be more intentional about what that is to be more worshipful and awe, really, I think in wonder of, who God is and His creation.

So that would be like a cognitive one

Geoff Holsclaw: You, what you, what you said reminded me of, Psalm 1, and I know, some early church commentators didn't think of that as just, I'll just read it. So it's, "Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way of the sinners or sit in the company of the mockers."

And that's not just... Ear- early church commentaries applied that to our thoughts, right? That's not just our physical relationships. So it's are we ruminating on the wicked and the sinners? Or, "Blessed be those who delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate day and night," right? So we're, in awe certainly.

And then you become like a tree planted by water and all those good things. so what would be more of the, physical, kinda aspect?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah, I think about, if we think about, classic Christian spiritual writings, I think about, this idea of labyrinth prayers. I th- have that in the book, this idea of going out. And, it's interesting, not too long ago, I w- after I had written the book, I was at, my daughter's, music recital, a- and it was at a church.

and I had never been to this church before, and we were waiting outside, it's at nighttime, and, going in to get seats. And my son, says, "Dad, what's this?" And he points over to this labyrinth that's right out in front of this church. And so I had never seen one in per- i- in, person. There was, there's, I think a website called Labyrinth Finder where you can, enter in your ZIP code and see.

But I've, just really seen pictures of labyrinths. But I think what I like about a labyrinth, it's this idea of a pilgrimage to a sacred place, and people couldn't afford to go, and so they would have these more spiritual kinds of experiences of walking a labyrinth. So I think it's pairing a, physical experience with, reciting a verse or maybe, reciting who God is, His name, a name for God, or, And so being out in nature, I think we can do those kinds of things through labyrinth, kinds of prayers and walking labyrinths. We can also do so with, Brother Lawrence's instructions on practicing God's presence, where you're pairing, just this idea of, I think one of his phrases is, God, "My God, I am completely yours," pairing that with an activity.

so going on a hike or watching a sunset or... So this idea of being out in the world, and, if we use the, old hymn, "This Is My Father's World," this idea that I can walk around God's world and be in awe of His creation, as long as I'm engaging in creator worship, not creation worship, right?

I'm constantly looking back to who God is, and I think the way to do that is to pair these sensory experiences of being out in God's creation with some kind of way to remember God. A short passage, a name of God. It could be the Jesus Prayer. but in so doing, we're keeping a right perspective on, who God is and, that we're giving glory to Him because He's the, creator of all.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. And then, what would be the last one, for the socially triggered experiences of God? Maybe that's corporate worship or something like that, or what are some other examples?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah, I think that, that could be it. I think it's, more of the experience. I think more of, contemplative experiences. So of course, your listeners probably know that, as you think about the different practices, Lectio Divina brings them together. You have, meditative practices, prayer practices, and then contemplative practices.

Contemplative being more of an openness to God's love, often downplaying the use of words or images. But it's more of that, relational piece. if we use The Cloud of Unknowing language, it's reaching out to God in love, not overly relying on knowledge, which we kind of place between a cloud of forgetting.

But this idea would be it's more of an experience of God, and so I think about practices like, the instructions from The Cloud of Unknowing. I think about the Jesus Prayer where, you know, Lord Jesus, Christ have mercy on me. but this idea of being more intentional about the communion with God, so that we can have this experience of who God is beyond words and images, which often can, if we go back to that idea, of assimilation, trying to put God in a box and wrap our head around God.

So the apophatic Christian tradition, downplaying the use of words and images, I think has, a lot to offer. Of course, from an evangelical perspective, as long as we're anchored to scripture, right? We're not just going out in, into space like an astronaut untethered to the ship, but, but that we're, engaging these more experiential practices to be in awe of who God is from a relational perspective.

And then we can extend that out to, being in awe of what God is doing in and through other people and, how people serve, and how people worship together, and how people, are Christ-like in, in what they do despite being fallen, that, God gives His grace to us to sanctify us to be more like Him.

So yeah, I would say it's the more experiential piece. and there's some overlap with the cognitive, triggers, but I think it's, much more emphasizing the relationship with the Trinitarian God of, scripture.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. The, Yeah, there's just so many things I'm thinking about right now. But you're very practical, so you bring this up at, again, you go into detail, with all these practices throughout the book. but at the beginning and then at the end, you ta- you use the word awe as a way of, doing this, and you were talking about, when you're out in creation or maybe when you're in worship.

So you, take those letters to be attend, worship, and enhance. So just real practically to finish off, today, could you kinda just go through what you mean by those, and how do they, begin cultivating awe within us?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah, I think, a- and that's modified. There's a, there's actually a secular, book that's out that's more of a mindfulness applied to awe. And so I saw that and I said, we have a, different approach to that," still preserving the three letters. But so yeah, attending, it's, focusing our attention on God as a starting point, as, we get things started.

A- and then this idea of worshiping God by really breathing in who God is, and holding that experience as we're in awe of whatever it is before us, whether that's through a cognitive, a ph- a physical or a relational trigger. And, then it's expanding this idea of, we're, worshiping God and, what he has provided to us, blessed us with in this moment, what's before us, and then expanding it to being a- appreciative of his creation.

and so I think we can then be in awe of, the physical structure or this pers- person performing, a, amazing play at the Super Bowl or this great idea, as long as we are still connected to, tethered to, the creator. And so the, expanding piece is just to then take this awe, with us out into God's world, but a- and to breathe out to symbolize, be- being aware of all that God has blessed us with, but it's this idea of still being connected to, God as creator.

Geoff Holsclaw: And so that would work, in any situation, right? So you could just be at a sporting event, which doesn't necessarily feel overtly Christian or spiritual, and then you could just be in awe of that athletic, accomplishment or whatever, or just, when you watch the Olympics. but then you could bring worship into it, right?

So it, could be a religious situation or it could just be any situation, right? It's more of like practicing the presence of God. Is that right?

Joshua Knabb: Ex- it's exactly right. so it, going about our day, in every moment we can ... Now, and I think what it also does, it, practicing by really, focusing our attention on God, worshiping him in the context of this experience, and then from there being appreciative of this person, place, thing that he created, and being in awe of that.

And we can do that throughout the day. And then I think what it does as we first focus on the big things, I think we can increasingly be in awe of the smaller things, which I think ... and one thing I didn't mention before, there's been some research that's linked awe with gratitude, which is, you mentioned positive psychology.

That's huge in the positive psychology, movement, this idea of finding the good and recognizing the source, if we use one definition. And so I think then throughout life we can be grateful for and in awe of even the smaller things. Looking over at the breakfast table and, seeing my son eating breakfast and being in awe of the fact that, God created him and blessed me with him, and just being in awe that God created this human being before

So even the smaller things we can be appreciative of and in awe of. We don't have to wait until we go to Egypt to see the, pyramids to, to, wait to be in awe, but it can be a moment-by-moment experience, which is o- overlaps with practicing God's presence, that we can even practice God's presence in the mundane.

And, Brother Lawrence, being a sandal maker and a dishwasher apparently. So I think all of life becomes an opportunity to worship in reverential awe because we are increasingly grateful for even the small things that are all a blessing.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. I'm glad that you linked the awe with the gratitude, And this also gives, 'cause when we say, "Oh, we should worship God in all things," or, "We should, pray without ceasing," you're like, how do you do that?" But I think, this kind of idea of, attend to what's happening, find a way to worship God, and then what's that last word where you have enhance?

What does that mean, for? So it's attends to, the experience, then worship God, but then there's also enhance.

Joshua Knabb: Yeah, I think that kinda captures holding on to the experience, and then expanding it by, by looking at the God's creation. And then we can... Because we're in right relationship with God, we're moving from creator, I'm sorry, to creation to creator worship. But because we have acknowledged God as the author, we can then appreciate and savor the thing before us.

and so I think that's where all of life becomes, an act where we are in right relation and position with God, and therefore we can appreciate all of life in doing so. And so there's an overlapping term that I've been, thinking through, and I'm gonna probably do some research on, next year, is savoring, this idea of savoring.

And so savoring is basically holding on to positive emotional experiences. And so in the context of, expand, I think that's what we're talking about, that we can... It's not to be hedonistic, but it's to say, "Before I move on to the next thing, maybe I could just slow down and be in awe of, God and His creation for a little longer.

maybe watch the sunset for, one more minute, or appreciate the conversation with my wife for one more minute before I go on to the next thing in our fast-paced society." So I think it's being more anchored to the present moment and being more aware of, of God's presence in the midst of His creation.

Geoff Holsclaw: I don't know if this is what you meant by it, but, if I came across that in the way we train people, to cultivate joy and gratitude, the enhanced part would be to share it with somebody. Is 'cause when you share it and it becomes interpersonal, then it be- in a sense, becomes more real.

Your body and your brain kinda imprint it and hold onto it in a different way. E- even if you're just sharing it to God as a prayer, as a gratitude prayer. I don't know if, that fits with what you were thinking, but sharing it with somebody is a way of enhancing it, and it makes it stickier, and then it also draws other people into that same experience, and then you can start doing it in community.

thank you so much for all the work that you've been doing on worship and Oz well as Christian mindfulness. It's just so fascinating. Where can people find out more about what you're doing, and are there other projects or things that, you'd like to share right now?

Joshua Knabb: Yeah, I have my personal website, which is just joshuanabb.com. There it's-- I got my books on there, but also have some free resources, a lot of MP3s, manuals for things I've researched, lots of different, free things for people to check out. I also have a podcast, that, I basically look at a, psychological concept and try to bring in the Christian tradition and then have some kind of practice at the end.

So yeah, check out my podcast. It's just called The Christian Psychologist. There's a link there on my website as well.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, I was poking through your podcast earlier today and there was, I was really curious about all those manuals for different kind of things and you use them in your spiritual practices. I'm definitely gonna check those out. So you can find those in the show notes. Thank you, Dr. Nabbs, so much for being on with us.

I hope we can stay connected somehow.

Joshua Knabb: Absolutely. Thank you very much