141 Exchanging our Emotional Yo-Yos for Jesus's Yes

In this episode of the Attaching to God podcast, Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw explore the ancient Christian “Great Exchange”, that Jesus became what we are so we could become what he is—taking on humanity, sin, weakness, and death to give righteousness, strength, adoption, and life. They contrast Peter’s Passion-week emotional “yo-yo” with Jesus’ steady “yes,” holding both intimacy and independence with the Father and his disciples through the Last Supper, Gethsemane, and the cross. The episode closes with a palms-up/palms-down practice of releasing what we carry and receiving what Christ has already accomplished, a short prayer, and a blessing.

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

Stay Connected: 

• Check out our Attaching to God 6-Week Learning Cohort.
• Join the Embodied Faith community to stay connected and get posts, episodes, & resources.
• Support the podcast with a one-time or regular gift (to keep this ad-free without breaking the Holsclaw's bank).

Transcript

Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast For the season Sin, I are looking at key concepts and practices about becoming more deeply attached to God, so that whatever landscape we might be in, we can follow the Good Shepherd back to the pastors of joy and peace.

Cyd Holsclaw: In our last episode, we talked about choosing joy in place of doom scrolling, and Geoff and I both came up with ideas to practice. So we are still running experiments and we're gonna give you an update on how that has gone in our next episode. But today we're talking about exchanging our emotional yo-yos for Jesus's yes.

And you can thank Geoff for that alliteration, the Yo-Yos and Yes. Um, but we hope that as you listen [00:01:00] today, you will see or hear something that helps you engage more deeply in the events of Holy Week. This week. so as we're moving into Good Friday and Easter, we hope that something that we say today will maybe bring something, a new awareness or a new insight and will deepen your experience of traveling through Holy Week this week.

But before we do that, let's do a little gratitude practice to help us shift from protection into connection. Geoff , what are you grateful for today?

Geoff Holsclaw: I. I don't remember if I've said this before, but I'm grateful that our son Tenon cooks us dinner every couple times a week. Especially his, is it his chicken stir fry with rice? I love that, but I don't know what's in the chicken stir fry with rice. could you kind of name how he

goes 

Cyd Holsclaw: he has some sort of spice blend and I'm not entirely sure that it's even always [00:02:00] exactly the same.

Geoff Holsclaw: chef now who has his own proprietary spice blend.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yes. And he doesn't write his recipes down. They just come forth from his brilliant mind. So I know it's got onions and zucchini and bell peppers, and he sautes those vegetables. And then he also broils the chicken with some kind of spice blend. And then he throws it all together and it's delicious and it's his own creation and we don't get sick of it.

So we eat it like once a week probably. So

Geoff Holsclaw: I love it.

Cyd Holsclaw: I am really grateful for that too. 'cause it means I'm not cooking on those days as well. I am also really grateful. Yeah, I'm just gonna riff off that since you started it. I'm actually really grateful that he appreciates variety in food too, because you're always telling me I could eat the same things every week if you just had the same thing every Monday, every Tuesday, every Wednesday.

but I don't like that. I like variety. [00:03:00] And so I like that I can keep experimenting and offering variety and explore, and I get great reactions out of him when he sits down to a meal and he goes, wow, mom, this is delicious. And he'll even start naming some of the spices. And now actually our older son who lives away from home and is married, will walk in the door and go, what do I smell?

Ooh, I smell garlic, balsamic vinegar. It's just, it makes my heart so happy that my sons enjoy food. You will eat and you enjoy. You're just not quite as specific and descriptive. So that's all. Anyway, enough of our gratitude. As all of you are listening, let's give. We're gonna give you a moment to pause and just consider what is something that you are feeling appreciative of today or something that you are grateful for. [00:04:00] And I wish we could hear all of these things that you're grateful for, but it's really, it's, good to help those come to mind so that we can start this episode from a place of connection. So Geoff , what are we talking about today? I.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, well the, the title was Exchanging Our Emotional Yo-Yos for Jesus. Yes. Uh, and we're gonna talk about Peter, particularly as maybe riding that emotional rollercoaster that, yo-yo. but I want to Use this larger concept in the Christian kind of tradition, the spiritual formation tradition, uh, the ancient church, they would talk about the Great exchange and what was the great exchange.

it's really this idea that the kind of phrase or slogan. And something like Jesus became what we are so that we could become what he is. The great exchange, Jesus became what we are so that we could become what he is. And that's kind of parsed out in a bunch of different ways. so Jesus [00:05:00] took on our humanity so that we could live into his divinity.

That's kind of that main one. Uh. But Jesus also took on our sin so that we might receive his righteousness. So that's sometimes we think these are substitutions, but I think maybe in exchange is a better way of thinking of it. Jesus took on our weaknesses so that we might live in his strength. Jesus took on our poverty so that we might live in his riches.

Jesus became an orphan in a sense, so that we might become children of God and Jesus entered into death so that we might be freed for life. Uh, one of the passages where we could think about this is Hebrews chapter two, verses 14 through 15, because God's children are human being. Sorry, I jumped right into the quote, but here it is.

Uh, because God's children are human beings, made a flesh and blood, the sun also became flesh and blood for only as a human being could he die. And only by dying could he break the power of the devil who had the [00:06:00] power of death. Verse 15. Only in this way could he set free all those who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear.

Of dying. So that's, again, that's a, that exchange between life and death and that Jesus had to become human so that he could enter into our death so that we, through this power of the spirit, could enter into his life.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I feel if I were listening right now, I would wanna have those things repeated because they're just so big and like just to, sometimes we brush past 'em because they've become like things that we know or feel factual. So I, can I just repeat those a minute? I'm just gonna say 'em quick. no, you don't even have to be quick. That's fine.

Yeah, just to let these really sink in that Jesus took on our humanity so we could live in his divinity. He took our sin so we can receive his righteousness. He took our weakness [00:07:00] so we could live in his strength. He took our poverty so we might live in his riches. Then this one of course is really special to me that he lived as an orphan, so that we might become children of God, like Jesus gives us a new family, and then Jesus entered into death so that we might be freed for life. those are, each one of those is worth a podcast episode right there, but we're gonna keep going.

Geoff Holsclaw: and each one of those is a different way of stating the gospel, And I didn't even say he became an enemy. So that we would become friends of God. So this is all different ways of talking about how Jesus took on sin for us so that we could be saved. yeah. So they're just, that's, this is the gospel.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, it's really good news. Yeah. So what. about all of that today, in light of intimacy and [00:08:00] independence, which is an attachment formation. Some things that happen as we are attaching, as in young days. And so when, we talk about intimacy and independence, what we mean, oh, go ahead.

Geoff Holsclaw: not just, attachment, which is true because the science is catching up to scripture, but it's really the image of God in us. And we have been made, humans have been made in God's image, but because of the fall we no longer have those perfect capacities to have balance or to integrate intimacy and independence.

But Jesus comes and and shows us and allows us to Receive those things again.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. And so when we talk about this theme of all through scripture, we see that God is with us. He wants to be with us. That's the intimacy. And then God wants us to partner with him to flourish life in the world. And that's, the independence. It's the going out when Jesus sends the disciples out.

And Just before we start, I just kinda wanted to say a little bit more of like [00:09:00] intimacy. We're not just talking about romantic intimacy, we're talking about closeness, between human beings, so being able to be close and between us and God. So being close, being safe and vulnerable. Um, sort of being in a, in a relationship of trust where we can be very near each other, very connected to each other.

But then also there's independence, which is when we go away from each other, when we separate. And so we're far from each other. We're doing things differently separately, sort of on our own. But the thing that's really amazing that we see in attachment science, which we also see in scripture, is this sense that even when we are apart, we carry this felt sense of availability of other people, even when we're not in close proximity to each other.

And so we see Jesus carrying that too in his earthly life where he has this. He seems to have this felt sense of being with his father, even though he has left the fellowship of the Father in the spirit to be [00:10:00] on. and we, well, we could have a whole conversation about the Holy Spirit being with Jesus in his earthly life too, but that sense that Jesus and the Father are still close, even though they are far apart.

And Jesus has left the fellowship. And so in the same way that Jesus models and carries both intimacy and independence, he we're meant to carry both. It's not one or the other. They're not opposites. It's not like we're either intimate or we're independent. We're meant to be both intimate and independent and to be able to do those back and forth, in a back and forth capacity.

Geoff Holsclaw: And Jesus, when, we talk about this a little bit in landscapes of the soul about how Jesus, you know, his prayer practice was to go out and to pray for the Father early in the morning, and then the disciples are like, Hey, where are you? And then Jesus, you know, says, like, I've come down in order to like spread the gospel.

Right. So [00:11:00] his, his. Pursuing intimacy with the father was so that he could go out and continue on mission, uh, which is that independence, that kind of agency alongside Jesus. And that he had gather the disciples to be with him on the one hand, but also to be sent out from him on the other hand, to do the things that Jesus did, even though Jesus was, you know, not there.

And so these two movements, these two capacities are always at work, in discipleship and in the very life of Jesus. But this emotional, yo-yo. I wanted to illustrate through Peter, several years ago I was reading through the Gospel Pass passion narratives and the invitation was to, imagine yourself with Jesus.

what is Jesus doing? How do you identify with Jesus? What are you learning? And my whole experience was. But I really identify with this Peter Guy. Peter's [00:12:00] the one.

Cyd Holsclaw: I'm so glad that Peter is in the gospels. What would we do without Peter? I'm so glad that his stories are in there.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and there's a lot we could share. Leading up to, good Friday or, Monday, Thursday, but we'll just kind of pick it up with on Monday, Thursday about this emotional, yo-yo. So, Peter was pretty, boisterous in his support of Jesus all throughout and defending him in different ways, you know, and then.

Like Jesus is like, Hey, we're gonna go for the Passover, or we're gonna go visit Lazareth. You know, like, and it's like, oh, well we might die. Let's go. We don't know what's gonna happen. And he was like, you know, no matter what, like I'm with Jesus even if we might die. and then during the last supper, I.

Jesus kind of lays out for Peter, like, Hey, you're gonna deny me. And of course, Peter jumps in emotional high. I would never do that. I'm not gonna do that. Even if we die, I'm gonna follow you. So it's like this emotional high, [00:13:00] and is that, kind of using his agency to be intimate with Jesus or, you know, I don't, know.

Like there's something weird going on and we know there's something weird going on is because right after that Jesus invites. Peter, James and John onto the Garden of Gethsemane, and there's this really kind of vulnerable moment of Jesus crying out to God and Jesus invites his friends to support him in that.

And. What do they immediately do? They fall asleep. and so Peter isn't able to kind of hold that emotional intensity, that negative emotional intensity. He wants that positive bravado or kind of hyper-masculinity, who knows what, right? But then when it's this other kind of energy, this emotional vulnerability, he just.

Whatever he collapses, right? This happens three times. But then, he yo-yos back and the mob shows up to arrest. Jesus. And what does he do? We find out through the different kind of gospel accounts that he's the one that takes a sword lops off someone's ear. [00:14:00] So now he's defending, he's willing to kill for Jesus.

even though just a couple minutes ago he couldn't

Cyd Holsclaw: Couldn't stay awake. Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: and then, Jesus gets arrested, goes to the, high priest, he's out. there's the whole trial, multiple trials. Jesus is moving around, but Peter's kind of on the outskirts and then he gets recognized as a follower of, Jesus as being intimate, and he, and what does.

No, he denies Jesus, right? So he's just on this up and down and down and up. and, then Jesus looks at him, you know, the, the rooster crows and he storms away devastated. Like, oh man, this yo-yo I've been on. He was not able to integrate kind of his life, and all the different moments that Jesus was going through in himself.

and so when I was reading that, I was like, there's a lot of me. in that story, like I do that with [00:15:00] Jesus. I do that with my kids. I do that with my wife. I'm up and down. I got a lot of energy, then I collapse and I, then I disappear. and then there's different shame that gets, uh. or fear or guilt, right?

So that's, that, that's the picture of the sinful, the, the broken life that Jesus entered into so that he could exchange, with us.

Cyd Holsclaw: and everything that Peter does makes so much sense in like a human nervous system perspective, right? He's living in protection priority. This whole time of he wants to be connected with Jesus. He's onboard, he's on the mission, but then the moment things start to feel threatening and dangerous, he's overwhelmed.

He goes to sleep because it's too much. To handle. He pulls out a sword because he's on the defensive, he wants to attack, but then he's trying to, he's like fluctuating between different ways of protecting himself and [00:16:00] just when you're just looking at things on a human level, we can all find ourselves there.

And that makes so much sense to all of us of like, I can't handle it. Like I either need to lash out or I need to shut down. And so. I really appreciate what you're saying about like, you find yourself resonant there. I think probably all of us can recognize ourselves in Peter in that I can't handle it, it's too much.

And so that yo-yo that you're talking about and you know, that's this beautiful exchange. So then what do you mean when you say the yes of Jesus? Do you want me to answer that or do you wanna answer that?

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. why don't you talk about the yes of Jesus as saying yes to all those things, but then living into them in a different way

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. So you know, and this is where like when we hear this, it's only God with us can empower us to do any of these things that Jesus did. Like none of this is the kind of stuff we can, [00:17:00] like willpower ourselves into. And that's the su, that's what such good news about the gospel is that Jesus does exchange all of our humanity for his.

Strength and his divinity. And so, you know, if we go back to the Last Supper, when Peter, when they're all sitting around together at the Last Supper, Jesus is able to hold both intimacy and independence in saying He's being intimate with his disciples. He's blessing them, he's teaching them, he's praying for them, and he is even praying for those who are gonna betray and deny him.

And so he continues, even though there's danger, even though there's threat. He's still holding the intimacy. He's still, you know, feeling that connection. He's still moving toward them, even though he knows Peter's gonna die him, he knows Judas is gonna betray him. And so he's saying yes to all of it. Yes, this is the reality, and yes, I'm gonna remain who I am and I'm gonna remain for these disciples.

And then in Gethsemane, you know, when we have this [00:18:00] intimate prayer where he's inviting the disciples to stay awake with him, he's. Still expressing this intimacy with the disciples being vulnerable and, you know, doing it. Again, I don't know about, I don't know about any of you, but like, if I had asked people to stay awake with me and they fell asleep the first time, I'm not sure I would've asked again.

I would've been like, well, what's the point in asking you? You're gonna, you're not gonna be available to me anyway. But Jesus continues to invite them into this intimacy by asking them more than once to stay awake with him. But then he is also expressing. Intimacy with the father and saying, you know, not my will but yours.

But then he is also taking this independent action of, I'm going to go to the cross. I know what it's going to cost me, but I'm going to go to the cross. I'm leaving my disciples behind, I'm leaving my friends. And you know, even going into this deep, dark suffering. And then on the cross, even on the cross, he still has this intimate connection with the father saying, father, forgive them. He still [00:19:00] has this desire to be connected with the people who are there at the foot of the cross. Even the ones who are putting him to death, the ones that are ridiculing him and mocking him and hurting him. Still saying, father, forgive them, but then still dead set. On, I am going to suffer.

I'm going to see this through to completion. I'm not going to use my divinity to jump off this cross. I'm gonna see it through. And so this combination of the, intimacy and the connection, but then also the willingness to leave people behind to be separated for the sake of the mission that he is on.

And so. A couple episodes, we talked about the three temptations of Jesus, and so we talked about how throughout these temptations as the enemy is trying to get Jesus to sort of give up his attachment defaults and, instead be insecure. Jesus never wavered in his hope because he continued to have the joy set before him [00:20:00] and he never wavered in his faith.

But he continued to pray that the father would gather his spirit into his hands, even at the cross into your hands. I commend my spirit and he never used his agency for his own gain or for his own comfort or to stop the suffering, but he always used his agency, to love others, and he kept going. And so as we look at all of this that Jesus did, it's not just that Jesus models this for us, but as we talk about exchanging the yo-yo for the yes, Jesus doesn't just model.

This connection of intimacy and independence and this wholeness and this, you know, this, hope, faith, and love. But in he also exchanges all of our inability to carry any of that and gives, he carries that our inability and he gives us back. All of his ability, all of his ability to do that. And so it's not that we can just imitate Jesus, but that we also have all of the power [00:21:00] and the strength and the resources of Jesus to be able to live into the fullness of what true humanity really is.

And that is the way that Jesus is truly human and yet intimately connected with God the whole time.

Geoff Holsclaw: And so when we think of this great exchange, this is, we don't wanna move too fast to the, This is now what I need to learn how to do better or relying on the Holy Spirit. I need to learn how to do this better. And there is time for that. But I think I want to offer to all of us today is the gospel message of in Christ, those things are already done.

And in Christ you can live, uh, this new life. And in Christ you do have the righteousness of God. And in Christ you are forgiven and loved and in Christ the Father delights in you always. and that. Christ has taken these things in that even though we might look at our life and be like, oh [00:22:00] brother, I'm acting like Peter again.

It's like that's good to acknowledge and remember that Jesus has walked this path and that in him we have all these things. and that that becoming more like him oftentimes just comes out of the fact of remembering that we live in him and that that is the gift of grace for us.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. And it reminds me of, the way that, in Jared Boyd's book, finding Freedom in Re in Constraint, he talks about like in the ugliest places where we find ourselves, I'm not quoting him exactly, talking about opening ourselves up to the love of God and that it's love. It's God loving us in our un loveliest of places, that it's the god's love that transforms us.

And even as we find ourselves behaving like Peter and we find ourselves in those places of weakness and brokenness and death and everywhere else. In this place, God still meets me right here with what has already been accomplished in Christ and he still loves me right [00:23:00] there. And it's when I can receive God's love, even in that ugly unlovely place, that is the love that transforms me.

And so, you know, as we move into Holy Week this week, I'm even thinking of a practice that I would even love to invite people into right now. Do we still have time for that? Okay. So if you are able, and again, I'm always gonna say if you're, don't do this if you're driving or maybe do it with one hand, but with your eyes open.

but I just invite you, there's this old practice you've probably, you may be familiar with. It's just palms up, palms down. and so when your palms are up, it's like you're acknowledging what's already in your hands. And then when we put our palms down, it's like we're releasing or letting that go.

So I just wanna invite you to hold your palms up and as you hold your palms up, just sort of thinking about all of these things that you recognize in Peter that are in you. [00:24:00] and even in that list of things that we said at the beginning, in the great exchange of what Jesus has done, even just thinking, where do I see my sin? Where do I see my weakness? Where do I see my poverty or my orphan ness? Where do I see how death has worked its way into my life? Just picturing yourself holding those things in your hands, maybe even naming them out loud. Maybe places where you feel enslaved or like a prisoner in your own life. Maybe the yo-yos, your emotional yo-yos. And then I invite you to just take a really deep breath with me and then just [00:25:00] turn your hands over as a reminder that Jesus has taken all of that. In his own body, in his own flesh, and he has put it to death and just holding your hands upside down now so that your palms are down there, you're no longer able to hold all of that because it's all already been washed away. It's already been done with, it's already been taken care of. It no longer has a hold on you. And so just again, taking a nice deep breath to just receive that, letting go, that release, that exchange, Jesus became what you are so that you could become what he is. And then I just in invite you to turn your hands back over. Palms up. And now we're gonna receive what is already ours. [00:26:00] So we talked about how even when you find yourself living like Peter, the work of Jesus is already done. And so you already have in your hands now access to sharing his divinity, Christ in you, the hope of glory. You can already receive his righteousness, you can already receive his strength, his riches, his freedom, and you are already a child of God called by name, chosen. And then invite you even just to take those hands that are outstretched, holding all of this, and maybe even just bringing those hands into your heart, placing them over your heart, and just [00:27:00] offering a simple prayer with me, Lord Jesus, let me live into the reality of what you have already done. May I live your life? Amen. And so as you go into this holy week, and as you, if you're in a liturgical setting, or if you're in a church that practices Monday, Thursday, and Good Friday, and moving into Easter Sunday, as you move through these rhythms of this week, just pray that you would just keep that exchange in mind. All of these things that I still struggle with. Jesus has taken them upon himself and has his exchanged them for everything that he is that I might live his life. So we'll just [00:28:00] end as we always do. Our next episode will be all about resurrection and when faith that trusts even when you can't see. but for now, I wanna just offer you the blessing again. and in Christ, this blessing is always true, even when it doesn't feel like it. So may the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn towards you and give you peace, and remember it's already done and Christ Himself is with you. Amen.