138 Is Humility Bad For Your Self-Esteem, or Good For Loving Others? (Voices from the Kellia)

In a world of self-promotion, self-esteem, and self-worth, is there a place for Christian humility? What can we learn from the monks of old and how they connected humility to love?

Host Geoff Holsclaw welcomes back David Clayton (Spiritual Director and Forensics Behavioral Analyst) to continue our monastic series (Voices from the Kellia), where they talk about how humility for the monk was not just about feeling like a worthless wretch, but about creating space for love for others by receiving God's love for us. 

Geoff and David contrast self-deprecation and “worm theology” with a true humility that cultivates a non-defensive posture open to reality without resentment.

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Transcript

Is Humility Still Relevant

Geoff Holsclaw: In a world of self-promotion, in a world of self-esteem, self-worth that speaks of dignity and honoring the true self, is there still a place for Christian humility? What can we learn from the monks of old and how can it connect to our everyday lives? That's what we're talking about today. Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast.

I'm Geoff Holsclaw and we are exploring a neuroscience informed discipleship and spiritual formation. As always, this is produced by the Center for Embodied Faith. 

Meet David Clayton

Geoff Holsclaw: Today we are continuing our. Monastic series, if we wanna call it that, where we are looking at the roots of Christian ma monasticism and asceticism as a refor resource for discipleship, spiritual formation, and even just everyday living.

And today we have our regular guest, David Clayton. He is our field reporter of a kind of monastic spirituality. We call him the voice from the Kelly, which see, I didn't have the right kinda, British accent there. But the voice of the Kelly, which is the monastic cells from the deserts. David is a spiritual director and a supervisor of spiritual directors.

He's a trained behavioral analysis and a facilitator of psychological safety. So glad to have you back.

David Clayton: Great to be here, Geoff. As ever, a absolute joy to be talking about this stuff and sharing a conversation with yourself.

Geoff Holsclaw: before we jump into the topic of humility and some of the subtopics there, you were on a trip. So it's not just that you're glad to be here, like you're glad to be back to where you are. So tell us just really quickly, you were doing a bunch of interesting things.

David Clayton: yeah, well, quick, uh, it was a quick retreat, research trip, looking at a few areas of historic spirituality and, um, trying to rest. In the midst of that and pray. We found some interesting stuff, which I won't go into Uh, today, but one point was we managed to spend some time looking at a 4th century catacomb church Relating to Saint Agatha and Martyr.

Martyr killed on Sicily and then, um, was related to Martyr, Malta Thanks for watching! and became the patron saint of part of malta but the key thing was i met one of the order of agatha who are specific to the catacombs and specific to the fourth century church and altar and it was just something um experiential uh i mean just being in the place brought one to a degree of humility to think that this altar had been serving the the bread and wine of the host since the fourth century.

I mean, obviously not on a regular basis. There is a church above it, but it was just quite, quite powerful and quite thought -provoking. So, yeah, I've come back a bit tanned. I managed to dip into some Carmelite stuff as well while I was away, which was an absolute joy and some other bits and bobs, which we'll probably pick up on another time.

Geoff Holsclaw: Absolutely. So, just 'cause we're always trying to educate people in the language, the CARite, that's a tradition that's often, if you know the names of like, St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross, they're in the, the CARite world. We won't dive more into that. But this church was an old church and underneath the old church is a very old catacomb that has been celebrating faith in Christ.

Love of God for what? Almost 1500 years. That's amazing. That's so amazing. 

Why Modern Culture Resists Humility

Geoff Holsclaw: That's just just to think about with that long kind of perspective in mind, the ancient kind of perspective still calling out and shaping us, there is some of it. An older term not an older term, that's not quite the idea, but it seems antiquated these days of humility.

I think in our modern culture where we're emphasizing love, value or worthiness rather having an inner posture of dignity, the Christian idea of humility, which sometimes gets connected to being worthless or a worm. Even as you read some of these, remember that you're a worm. 

David Clayton: Bit of Calvin there.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. And I also, just to add it, and if you have thoughts to add, feel free, but there's also a lot of what we could, for lack of a better term, called ex evangelicals who strongly react against like the Christian doctrine of sin as being detrimental to a sense of self-worth and even harmful to our mental health.

And that speaking of humility is damaging, is often how I see 'em talk about that's almost setting you up to be abused if not being abusive. So I don't know if you have any other kind of what makes us resist to humility that you'd want to add? And if not, that's fine.

David Clayton: I think part of what you've mentioned there is the key current theme of, um, the social standing and representation of self through identity, rather than through capability, or action, or behaviour. So therefore, if somebody has a hurt, situation which is you know there are lots of people out there have been hurt by the church in various denominations but that develops a victimhood so therefore their identity becomes victim and therefore they present others as wrong and humility as a negative sense whereas humility would be from the desert tradition dealing with the sin dealing with the chaos and putting oneself under Not under, but below the other person and not judging them.

Then going, no, I've sinned more than you, so therefore I can't judge you. Uh, and taking that, and my sins follow me, so therefore I can't judge you. I can't represent any critical. That, no, obviously that doesn't take away from critical thinking. That emphasises critical thinking and reasoning and... Sensible, grounded behaviour. So, that'll be a quick response to that. And again, that's off the cuff. That's off the cuff. So, 

Geoff Holsclaw: you started introducing some of the concepts that we're gonna be getting to what I heard right there in my words would be, is sometimes I think our Protestant especially, so I'll speak Protestant, American kind of view of humility is something like humility is a way of reminding myself that God is God and I'm not, that everything is grace, that I'm undeserving.

And so in that sense, I'm, I am worthless that I'm in a state of being of worthless, but God's grace overcomes even that and. Moves forward you know, then salvation and things like that. And so, but that's not exactly how the monastic trition, I think, understands it. And what I heard you say is that humility's almost like a process or a posture that we're inhabiting.

It's not like our state of being before God, although it is, but it's a little different. My summary and then I'd love to hear how it goes, is that humility is really just creating space for love of God and others in us. That pride or other things, pushes out and that cultivate and that humility helps cultivate purity of heart so that we can enter into God's kingdom. But it's not really, and it sounds very like self-deprecating, but that's actually not its goal, it's part of this process. If that was a quick once over what are your thoughts there?

Humility as Being Small

David Clayton: about being small.

Geoff Holsclaw: it's about being small. Humility is about being small.

David Clayton: Yeah, I think, you know, just to... From your description there, that would be the, the consolidation of how I heard that and would fit in with, um, the Carmelite aspect of, um, Therese of Lisieux, uh, The Little Flower. All her theology and humility and she's an example of apostolic, living. When she couldn't leave her room, she was ill.

So... It's about being small and understanding, um, how big God is, I suppose, and not just, oh, big God, but that love, that faith, that trust, that assurance that even when things are going wrong, things are painful, things are, I mean, she, she died of like tuberculosis type ailment, you know, it was incredibly painful.

And yet she smiled all the way through it. You know, she had very human moments, but I just use that as a, as a kind of frame of between, um, us in contemporary society and the far history of the desert, because there's the link with Carmelite spirituality. It's based around the desert fathers, the desert spirituality.

Um, um, but, uh, I think. Y one way, one way of looking at it is, uh, humility is truth in motion. Um, it is not a self -deprecating, aspect, but clear seeing. In a way, if you were to frame it through something like psychological safety, it gives the capability to remain open to reality without defense.

And I think that kind of ties into what we're talking about. So it's a deactivation of defensive bias to use technical, technical language. So it's taking away the self -security rooted, and, and to be, you know, admit weakness without fragmentation to be small.

Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: To be small in the sense of vulnerability is not necessarily weakness. 

David Clayton: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: There's so much there. We're gonna, we're

David Clayton: we are.

Geoff Holsclaw: we're gonna peel those layers, truth in motion, clear. Seeing openness to reality without defense. I love all that. And that's what humility's supposed to cultivate in us, but I bet everyone who's listening right now would never have thought of it that way.

Psalm 131 and Childlike Peace

Geoff Holsclaw: But before we get into that let's talk about the Bible. Can we talk about the word as good, as good evangelical that I am, we wanna talk about the

David Clayton: Bring it in.

Geoff Holsclaw: about, I have to talk about the word by talking about the monastic tradition because in the rule of St.

Benedict which is super old roughly what year? I would wanna say four hundreds, but I don't wanna be wrong. It's it's super old. It of was one of the founding documents of monastic culture that we're pulling from. And so he, at, he has a whole chapter, uh, early on. All about humility, which I think the middle parts many of us might kind of squirm at because he talks rather harshly, but at the beginning and at the end it's really couched with God's love.

And he references Psalm 1 31. So I just wanted to take a moment just to kind of look at Psalm 1 31. And so he says, my heart is not proud, Lord, my eyes are not haughty, and that means lifted up, right? So that we're already getting to that humility right at the beginning. He says, I do not concern myself with great matters or things too wonderful for me.

And my understanding is that's part of the concern of monks to not speculate, not ramble on, not, not, not even talk a lot, right? Uh, then verse two, it says, I have calmed myself. I have quieted myself. I am like a weaned child with its mother, like a weaned child. I am content. Verse three, Israel, put your hope in the Lord both now and forever.

And I think this was, I was so glad that he brought this up because I know St. Benedict, and, the monastic tradition, they're, they're looking at those first two lines primarily as, I'm not proud, and I'm not lifting my eyes up, but verse two is really an attachment. Verse, which is this image of a child becoming small, becoming childlike, a child sitting with its mother and a weaned child is one that is no longer feeding from its mother.

Like a child, an infant who is still nursing, becomes very agitated near their mother because that's where you get your food from. But a ween child is no longer doing that. And so there's this strong attachment relationship that's not propelled by anxiety, uh, but rather it has peace, it has calm and that is I think one of the goals of humility is to be able to become that contented child in God's presence.

So I just wanted to start off with that one that becoming small. There's lots of other scriptures that you're gonna bring up here as we go, but this connection between becoming childlike, not having proud hearts, Let's move. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hand it over to you. You have a couple couple things.

Humility, metanoia athe, all these fun words. But let's start with that tru, truth in motion and the seeing clearly, and I just loved how you started talking about that.

David Clayton: Yeah. 

Desert Fathers on Humility

David Clayton: So, I'd add to that, Going back further, because obviously Benedict was kind of later. You would have Benedict and then you would have Carmelite, but going further back. Back, back, back, back. You know, Viragius Ponticus talks about, humility as forgetting injuries. And that kind of ties together much of what we've talked about, that it's a kind of self -emptying cognition, choice, a reasoned choice, that releases the mind from resentment. And obviously if we're talking in attachment language, then that's a crucial act of integration, letting go to process to integrate. So, if we were to look at... Let's go apothagmopatrum, let's go into the sands of the desert father and start the ball rolling. So, I think we talked on humility last time and that's how we ended up at this point today.

But starting with a new, comment. So, abapomen, again, regularly pops up. Humility is a garment of the godhead, and therefore conversely within our body. Thank you for listening. But I like this bit. I like the idea of that, that this is like a garment, that this is something which is high. You know, if we were to use that in, you know, if we were using actualized language towards that encompassing in the divine, that would be moving towards a more integrated self.

So therefore humility is a key part of that. In the Philokalia. And John Climacus' ladder. There's a reference that I think is key to this. That humility is the only thing that demons cannot imitate.

Because pride makes demons out of angels. But humility could not make angels out of demons. So even if a demon was to act with humility, it couldn't, because it cannot, it's against its nature, it's the only thing.

So therefore there are many references within the, in the, Apothagon Patrum, the sayings, and, and within the, the, the Philokalia's teachings, that present towards, If you can move your life towards anything, move it towards humility.

Small, not self -deprecating, because that, you know, if I were to be, use a broad brush comment on, self -deprecation and negative view of self, that's just inverted pride.

That's all, look at me, I'm so poor, weak, vulnerable, victimized.

Those are strong terms, but then there's an identity of I in that. Look at me. Look at this. This is an emphasis. Whereas what this is talking about is looking at the other and going, You're better than me. How can I help you? How can I share charity?

How can I get things out of the way? How can I change my mind? Metanoia. How can I get things out of the way? Apathia. And how can I act towards a person in care and love and charity? So in a way, if we're looking at this from a science point of view, That this humility function is like the self -presence in the IFS system.

I'm not an IFS expert, but I've integrated some of the points of this. So it's, um, the self's curiosity and calm aspect that allows the protective part, the manager's part, etc. Um, to act. to act on and practically I suppose that looks like humility is a door to open up a system to internal dialogue rather than coercive or impactful, um, Well, coercion within the self.

So in a way there's this. Is this like an oil within the self, within a person? I mean if you meet somebody who is actually humble, they may not be like uriah heap in dickens, you know, I'm never so humble They may be quite brash and aggressive and, but they may be really genuine, really caring, really integrated and able to develop strong social connections.

go on.

Humility Versus Mimetic Rivalry

Geoff Holsclaw: I was, a couple things came to mind there, and one is probably a huge, and I was like, oh, I haven't thought of this recently. But what I heard you saying is that humility is really like an interpersonal dynamic that we're trying to establish. It's not self-referential. What is my worth and wellbeing in myself, by myself, uh, that it's, it's really an opening, a space to let others in.

And that's goes back to I think the becoming smaller. And I was thinking of like mimetic desire, the competitive desire comparing ourselves with others. Can I get what they have? I'm jealous that I don't have the success that they have. I am bitter that life didn't fall the same way that it did for so-and-so.

Uh, and so there's that, that, that desire. So is the humility that the monks were after. And part of this was actually leaving the city so they could be by themselves, was to disconnect that kind of mirroring desire that. Usually spirals downward rather than a vicious spiral, rather than a virtuous spiral.

One that leads us above, or am I taking this the wrong direction?

David Clayton: No, you crack on. I think, I think I would add in, you know, it's not just interpersonal. To look at the behavioral science of it, there's an intrapersonal, um, recognition and, and, you know, putting the work in. Uh, as, as in the behavioral science. Language and dealing with the toxic stuff and doing the, the processing and dealing with the somatic trauma processing and, and, and.

And that all comes from that, um, so, so in a way we could use the term socially transcendent for that. And I'm aware of a white paper that, that uses that. But, but to reference your point about stepping aside, I mean that was to die. Thank you. So, so this, this, this aspect of humility is to, is to become less, to die small deaths.

Uh, and with that, there's a social transcendent aspect to that, which is the stepping away. That doesn't necessitate that everybody is called to go and live in a cave or to become, you know, it, it, it's, it's, it's one of those things that's specific. Thank you for watching. I think, but, but with that, what that internal work enables is, so from a behavioral science point of view, humility acting with these behaviors reduces, or it affects the self -enhancing biases, the anchoring and confirmations like you mentioned, you know, it enables a person not to be driven by memetics.

Rene Girard's principle of, you know, competing and becoming together to be safe. So in a way, what we could, if we're going to really dig into the behavioral stuff and the brain stuff, then what it is doing is the antithesis to the limbic brain survival process and enables the person to step beyond the brain wanting to survive, but actually laying one's life down for others.

Geoff Holsclaw: in the language we use in our book and on this podcast a lot, then that's shifting from connection mode into, or sorry, from protection mode the survival instincts to the connection and being open to not just relationship with others, but also able to explore different relationships with myself that maybe I've been closed off with in the midst of protecting myself from myself, but also from others.

And so humility, as you're trying to describe it, is actually as the psychological sciences that you're referencing is actually this. It's a way not to be an animal. It helps us to be human as God made us. So you, can we transition to the, the metanoia then? Uh, 'cause you were 

David Clayton: just wanted to add

Geoff Holsclaw: as I could tell.

Okay.

Humility Opens the Mind

David Clayton: just wanted to add in, so to define that it creates a cognitive posture to receptive to new information,

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, yes. I like that. Okay. Can you fill that out a little bit? Why, how does humility create a posture to openness to new information? I

David Clayton: we've just We've just described that, you know, it is by that, it is by that process. What, what we're doing is allowing the self to become, this is a little bit of a loosey goosey term, but a bit more flexible.

You know, we're, we're doing the work so that, you know, that doesn't mean we're going to be really nice, really, I, I don't like the word nice. I come from a psychological safety background, so nice is an anathema to me in some degrees. You know, nice is, nice is not necessarily, it's, it's, it's, you know, persona presented.

It's, it's everybody, if everybody smiles and puts on and doesn't move, even move their dish on muscle, then all is well with the world. No. Truth. This is, this is about, you know, humility is truth in motion. So this is facing the truth of self, facing the truth of person. And I remember hearing a talk, a while back, and someone going, if you're at that level of understanding, then you've moved beyond naivety.

You've moved into the recognition that, things are bad, so therefore you become cynical, but then there's a movement beyond that cynicism where you take courage. So, uh, you know, as we move into the next point, then courage.

Courage to be humble. Courage to be small. Courage to be vulnerable. And not in a negative way, because we're not talking about being nice and allowing yourself to be victimized or downtrodden.

This is, you know, the monastics were severely counter -cultural. And in a way, quite aggressive towards, development.

They went out there on their own, did the inner work, but then, you know, there's a, there's a thing within. Some theological premise that look at the mystical cycle where one will ascend into God and then return back to aid With what one has learned, you know like some of the Celtic saints being stuck out in islands being quite happy there and then go in the church going we want you To be a bishop and they're like I don't want to be a bishop.

I'm quite happy sat on my island with God Thank you very much. 

Metanoia and Changed Seeing

David Clayton: So yeah, okay metanoia. So There's a, there's a big word, Geoff. Do you want to explain that one or do you want, do you want me to, to, to plonk some stuff on it?

Geoff Holsclaw: Metanoia is shows up in the gospel when Jesus announces, repent for the kingdom of God is near that repent is really the change of mind. It's the turnaround. Didn't the prodigal son as the story goes, didn't he changes mind? and so that's the repent. We often things think means confess all the bad things about yourself but which is part of repent in the Bible of course, but the actual word means to turn around, 

David Clayton: old

Geoff Holsclaw: Did I get that?

David Clayton: Testament turn.

In, in the language. If you're going to be a little theological and etymological, logical. Indeed, New Testament metonary to change. So, so we have a reality here that, that is, ontological. It's a state of being. It's a state of comprehension. Uh, and yes, diving into it.

Straight into the, where should we go? Should we go into the apothagma, just for a little?

Geoff Holsclaw: no. Is there more to say about the changing of the mind because

David Clayton: I don't, I don't, I think, I think we'll come on to that with the, you know, after. What I'd like to do is plonk some, plonk some Desert Fathers in and then pull out some neuroscience from it and emphasize that point, if I may.

Geoff Holsclaw: Okay. Before you do that, the one thing that came to mind was the noia, right? The mind and you were talking about a new way, a state of being

David Clayton: Ontological change, yep. Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: with that comes a new way of seeing. So when you, when reality changes, then things that weren't apparent then become apparent. Uh, things that seem to be important become less important.

And so that change of being is a change of seeing in which we see ourselves and others. And so the reason why that changes seeing, I think, is important is because on the one hand, like outside, we'll just say outside of the Christian tradition or just salvation, if you view these words or the sayings of the desert father or just kind of stumble upon Christian sermons about humility, they can sound revolting.

They can sound like what are they talking about and why do they hate themselves so much? But that's outside of this new way of being and seeing in which God who loves us and who died for us who came, you know, for God's love the world, right Outside of this whole kind of. True, but I'll also say story, right?

The story of God's love among us. Outside of that, if you're not seeing within that, then these things do seem foreign, offensive, uh, and confusing. Uh, so I just wanted to emphasize that.

David Clayton: I'd jump in on that as well and go that the current sort of climate of emotional intelligence and developing, a viewpoint from what we call emotional intelligence presents exactly that. But, but if people understand, humility, come from humility, come from that, then therefore the understanding of, uh, What we're talking about.

The gospel does not become clear without a, an insight into it. I don't, I don't think, I mean, scripture talks about that, but I think from a behavioral point of view, there is a synergy between the becoming, of the Christian journey. The metanoia, the turning away, the humility, the development, because that is an actualized process.

And that would be the point to emphasize. So there is a parallel between, um, actualizing in an emotion intelligent way and actualizing in a Christian way. So somebody may recognize a taste of, oh, that person is actually humble. And again, you know, their package may be not presenting or I'm ever so humble, I'm nice and all of that.

But there's something about them. So I just want to pull out that, that little thought that when people change, they change, that's an intrapersonal work that develops towards an emotion intelligence and therefore a behavioral thing. So the cop is it cop com model capability, motivation, an opportunity towards behavior in that behavioral cycle can make a difference.

It's attention and awareness towards opportunity and can affect relational context. 

Love Shapes Personality

David Clayton: So when God wishes to have mercy on a soul, he allows something to happen so that it may humble and repent.

That's Isaac Theban from the Alpha Thagma, from the saints. So, so in a way there is a. a psychological thing here and I love doing this.

So Freud, Adler and Jung all talk about personality is developed by love.

So therefore they put in the premise that perfect love creates perfect personality. So therefore the necessity for divinity to create love. infuse the process of a person's actualization is the only way that they will ever become their actual or true self or the higher towards that and we could get into how psychotherapy views absolute viewpoint and absolute self that's that's another thing but there is a there is something there of maybe we need the divine to become

And

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

David Clayton: I think

Geoff Holsclaw: Not, maybe we do

David Clayton: Yeah! Just

Geoff Holsclaw: not, maybe

David Clayton: Yeah, we do. We do.

Geoff Holsclaw: maybe from that before you turn, before the repentance, the change of mind outside of the Christian story, then the maybe is a, maybe 'cause it's just, you're just trying to figure out how to explain the phenomena of human existence. But within our story, we know that is the image of God within us.

That's only fulfilled. Excellent. All right. So were you

David Clayton: You got the Imago Dei in! Cry King. There's so much in this. These poor people, their heads must be going, Oh, all this stuff!

Geoff Holsclaw: we'll see if I get feedback. So were we shifting on to

Watchfulness and Metanoia

David Clayton: Well, no, I'm still in Metanoia. I know we're in, I know we said we'd get through as much as we can get through. So, but I just think there is the, the, the, from the Philokalia, the principle of, watchfulness.

Ezekiel talks of this, this village, diligence, vigilance in attention to thought. I mean, we talked of some of this last time with the Legismo, those funny furry aliens that come down, and those eight thoughts of sinful behavior, you know, so I think there is something of this. The way to engage in change is to become more intrapersonal, not navel -gazing, but have the ability to recognize one's behavior.

I spoke to an amazing behavioral, um, uh, what would you call them? I'm trying not. Anyway, an expert in behavioral science, who operates in business and in other sectors, and They came out with a saying that I thought was, you know, to use the term humble, and really, really opened up the conversation. They noticed that at times they had looked at themselves and gone, Why the hell did I do that?

And then they went, I did that because I haven't dealt with A, B and C in my past.

They recognised the pattern of their behaviour, cared for themselves, got some help, dealt with their attachment, you know, all of that complexity. And, and, and whether that was through a psychotherapeutic process or not, I don't know.

I mean, we're talking intrapersonal work, so therefore a person's journey, is a person's journey. 

Attention Training and Regulation

David Clayton: So within this, there's this attentiveness, which comes back to the prayer, which comes back to the contemplation, which comes back to the meditation, which comes back to the neuroscience, uh, strengthening cortical thickness through regular contemplation or mindfulness, which business is all over at the moment.

Neuroscience is all over at the moment. Try and develop that through the use of, psychedelics and other bits and bobs. I have conversations with people about that. But there is this kind of how, how do we develop the regions linked to our attention or our emotional regulation, because this is all behavior, emotional intelligence, regulation.

And again, a person who is nice does not mean that they are emotionally regulated. They may have chaos going off inside of them. Well, most of us have chaos going off inside of us, but, but it's how we deal with that. 

Desert Fathers and Inner Chaos

David Clayton: I mean, I think one of my favorite things about the Desert Fathers is their viewpoint of going into the desert was simply to deal with sin.

Now, if we change that language, they, they went into the desert to deal with the chaos, the disordered, and to bring about good self -attachment, good mental and emotional health, good behaviors. I mean, most of them are really grumpy. Some of them had some terrible backgrounds, you know, serious criminals, prostitutes, all sorts, not saying they're bad, but in, you know, they're not holy, they wouldn't be seen as holy people, but they were extremely holy.

So they learned to deal with the chaos and bring about, you could say, like an Eden -like, a movement towards Eden -like. So, so the, the, the metanoia, is a self -led negotiation that helps the kind of exiled parts integrate, to face the shame, to face the fear, to face the, self -deprecating even. know, because, I mean, if we're looking at humilities not self -deprecating based on shame and fear, because then it wouldn't be humility.

So there's something more, something whole, something holy, about this. So, you know, and I think in, in some clinical studies, and this is towards the IFS thing, so it's more your area, but I think, uh, there's been reports that symptoms have been benefited through narrative. And through engaging with this slowing kind of process, this internalizing and, and facing, so that, you know, you are non -judgmentally engaging with the different parts of the self.

Uh, I'm not going to quote references, but,

Geoff Holsclaw: okay, so I'm just taking a note here is

David Clayton: you didn't on IFS?

no, I doubt

Humility Makes Space

Geoff Holsclaw: I want so I wanna keep it practical and the IFS and non-judgmental one is you've, you mentioned two things, like being nonjudgmental and I was thinking too, like the modern kind of co correlate and the therapy speak or business speak is often something like, Hey, we wanna make space for people, right?

Or that's, that's like the stated goal and what I'm hearing. And what, what I'm thinking through is the virtue, if we could call it that or the practice of humility is how you make space. But oftentimes we're just like, you do better at making space in people. Well, like I, I haven't done the work to make space in myself, right?

So this is where humility comes in. And the non-judgmental, I was thinking, you're talking about this, whoever this person was who had in some meeting or a situation blurted out, they weren't them their best selves. They behaved in a way that they thought was inappropriate or, or was just less than themselves, right?

So then they go off and do work to figure that out. And, but a lot of times. So that takes humility, right? That takes humility to say, 'cause our defensive mechanism. So I, if I did something like that early on in my life, you know, I'm thinking back, uh, my teenage years and my twenties, the way I would respond to me behaving badly w would be defensively protecting, which would be something like, well, so and so made me do it right?

It's a very, usually it's very comp, it's a very complicated way. But that's the essence of, like, my defense of myself is either it's someone else's fault or it would be something like, that happened, but that's not who I am. So then you're saying no to that part. That's not really who I am, but the humble person. Or the one who's open to reality, the one who is nonjudgmentally surveying, all the information would say, would be curious to say, Hey, that part of me, what if, what if that is me? What if that's a bigger part of me than I admit to myself? Like, that's a moment of metanoia, of confession. But it's, it's also a moment of humility to say That thing that I don't like about me might be the true me right now or the, the me that's more regularly showing up than I allow.

Right? So humility allows you to do that self work and it also opens up space for other people to do the other work. 'cause these things like non being non-judgmental, it's like they're, they're kind of slogans now, but how do you actually do that? You do it by cultivating humility. Isn't that right?

David Clayton: I think, I think the, I think the desert. Yep. That's it. I mean, the desert, the desert fathers, kind of treat these things simply and it's like put others above yourself. I love what one of the best ways

Geoff Holsclaw: hold on. I wanna jump in. I'm brainstorming. You can help me out because I think the way it goes, I should probably have a debriefing session with Sid about this podcast, about what I'm about to say. 

Worth and the Christian Story

Geoff Holsclaw: But I think the way it goes is we've, we wanna value being non-judgmental. Okay, great.

We can all agree on that. How do we cultivate Nonjudgment mentality? This is, it's to affirm our self-worth. It's to remember that I'm good enough, smart enough, and people dogg on people like me according to the old Saturday night life skit. But how can you be sure that's true without, as you said before, Freud and Young and others without a transcendent reference, who guarantees who, because we're made in God's image without that reference that we actually are inherently worthy.

We don't. Actually know that that's true. And so you actually need the Christian story of the God who made us and loves us, who came down to prove and demonstrate that love to us on the cross, to help us know that we are worthy. And so, and we can only get into that story effectively through humility.

So nonjudgmentalness can't be achieved by just affirming outside of the Christian narrative that we're worthy. We actually have to affirm that we're worthy because we're in the image of God. And God himself practiced humility by not considering equality with God, something to be grass, but emptied himself, create, made himself small in order to become human and even to die on a cross.

This is Ephesians chapter two. And so that, that's what I'm thinking and saying. I don't know David if you're jiving with that, but that's where my brain's going right now.

David Clayton: I, I like it and I, I can see your, 

Geoff Holsclaw: you can disagree with me. I can handle

David Clayton: I, I'm not going to disagree with you, I'm going to agree with your point. 

Broader Spiritual Humility

David Clayton: Your point is from your dialectic which is evangelical, theological and broader theological. So therefore there is a deistic model which is based around Judaic, well Christian rather than Judaic Christian.

Um, so, So I'd be really annoying and go even within the broader tradition of world religion if you were to understand the philosophy that errs towards

spiritual you would find that there is a more softer, uh, right brain if I remember rightly McGillcrest's work, you know, so if you were to, to communicate with, say, someone from, and I'm trying to think on the, the work I read on philosophy. So, so, in, you know, India is a good example. So would be Japan or something like that.

There's a much softer, you know, they're not. necessarily christian but there is a much softer much more humble

know this uh more humanely attached kind of presentation not necessarily whole and they're all different and there are there is good and bad and negatives in all of this complex stuff so what we could say is on a spiritual model or a deistic model the influence of the spiritual i'm not going to say religious i'm going to say spiritual and that's not spiritual not religious that's we're not talking that we're talking actual formative behaviors within a social pattern in which come from a philosophical theological basis then there is something of this ability To treat another in a different way, in a more, we'll use that term, humility.

Uh, you know, you could use the word, the terms in a more emotional, intelligent way. To be frank, so, so I think you're absolutely right in what you're saying from a Christian point of view And particularly with your evangelical theory But I would broaden that framework, and go, look at the world of human beings and da, da da There's something else here which can, and which the dessert fathers represent clearly And that's, that's the big question Why we're talking about them, because they represent something which is holding a value in this day and age.

A, a freedom. You know, that, that freedom to let go, that apatheia, if you were, to...

Geoff Holsclaw: let's go into that. The athea. So that's the technical word. Some people feel like it's being emotionless, so not so ah, is the, is to say no. And Paia is like a passion. This is the old kind of way of speaking. So passionless and sometimes that gets understood in the current day as emotionless, which is not quite accurate.

But anyways, that's what the word kind of means. But the concept of the word and how it's used and what it's supposed to do, uh, is something different. So why don't you kind of, it's not, I'll just say apathy as, as David's about to explain. It doesn't mean to be apathetic as in uncaring, disinterested, aloof, or kind of disconnected.

So over to you.

David Clayton: Okay. Nice, nice classification of the difference between Stoicism and Christian apatheia. Yeah, nicely done. And I think that's, you know, because Ignatius, St. Ignatius of Loyola would present the principle of indifference. And again, that's a word which presents the same kind of attitude to have the removal of disordered affections.

And again, this is part of the metanoia, part of the change. So it's becoming, you know, and I, I love. When I'm doing presentations on this kind of stuff to express it as, Michelangelo's David and the stripping away of bits of marble to reveal the truth.

As humans that's painful and that's why we don't like doing it and we don't like change and we go oh no that's me or we go that's not part of me I'm going to suppress it and hide it and and deal with it but when you're in the desert You've only got yourself to face.

And that's the point of this prayer aspect of slowing down. So, Poman again, Abba Poman,

Geoff Holsclaw: Great.

David Clayton: to be still a stranger to the passions and keep your mind continually on God. So there's something of an intentional focus, which he emphasizes. And, and, and leaning into, I've been careful not to lean into too much of Rajas and Kasyan because I can just do it all on of Rajas and Kasyan, it gets a little bit, you know, they, they describe, between them, the apathy is a state where passions no longer rule the heart and the mind rests in God.

So this is not like you described, an absence from feeling. but a freedom from compulsive activity the drivenness that i must so underneath so if you look at it from a psychological point of view it's a way of addressing the drives and causes within our deeper psychological makeup you know, so we could say that, you know, to look at apatheia means that one is willing to go into that process where one heals the early development issues.

So we're talking, this is, this is really looking at emotion intelligence, you know. So from that, you know, I mean, if we're looking at Porgy's polyvagal theory, Just to throw another spin on it, because a lot of people like polyvagal stuff, and I think it is brilliant. Um, you know, the body holds it's score.

I read a book the other day, um, the soul holds it's score, which was fascinating. Um, but well, another. Another.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, Steven Porges did polyvagal Bessel VanDerKolk did body Keeps the Score, which is polyvagal adjacent, but they're not exactly the same thing. But,

David Clayton: but he refer, Bessel, Bessel references. You know, I think, I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of the, somatic stuff that's going around at the minute, you know, ref... So, so for me, okay, rather than,

Geoff Holsclaw: Just for listeners who are worried, we're gonna get lost in this, we're probably gonna do a whole nother episode just on Athea, because I was like, David and I were talking about this one. He is like, we're gonna talk about humility, but we're also gonna talk about metanoia, and we're also gonna talk about Athea.

I was like, we can do all that in one episode. So we're probably gonna deep dive, so why don't we just move on from the polyvagal and just kind of put a

David Clayton: but I just

Geoff Holsclaw: put a pin in it for another time.

David Clayton: three brains here. Un cerebro aquí y un cerebro aquí, así que eso sería lo que estamos lidiando con eso es por eso que quería traer eso en, porque si nos sentimos seguros en esos en nuestro intrapersonal podremos sentirnos seguros en nuestro extrapersonal, así que hay algo de la somática eso es por eso que quería traer eso en relación con la apatía, el separación,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

David Clayton: uh traumas if you would so which comes into go on i was going to go into contemplation there

Geoff Holsclaw: I was gonna go into the polyvagal stuff even after I said not to, so I'm gonna move. Okay.

Contemplation and Stillness

David Clayton: no we'll pause and and and and dear listeners we will return to this topic at some point it's just so much so but there is so for this we're looking at neuroplasticity of and and the key here is is the making the mind Rest in God.

Letting no longer the passions rule the heart. Being still in, in the contemplatio. If we were to look at it from the Benedictine model, the movement from, um, uh, lexio, ratio, meditatio, contemplatio, to move through that into a slowing of self. So that in short, the nervous system, ...feel safe enough to regulate stillness.

So, so this is, this is a practical thing and it's, and, and we're looking at, you know, I mean I've, I've ran contemplative groups for donkey's years. One of them's been going for like five years online. Um, and it's all about practicing towards contemplation, the point of making it achievable. Because it, it, it is an actual mystic ascent.

So this is not an easy movement. This is a movement into full emotional intelligence, into being actualised towards recognising, loving and caring for others because one becomes free. One becomes humble, small, puts others above themselves. Which is counter -cultural to our current social dynamic because the machine drives towards how Geoff described it earlier.

So it's an integrative part, not a suppression, which I think is key to a lot of your attachment work, if I'm right, Geoff. You know, it's not about, yeah, so it's not about suppressing. So in a way, this, apathia, I would throw down the practice of developing, prayer. And that's a big word, you know, and across cultures it means many different things, but if you look at the historic basis of prayer and the movement of the desert, it's towards stillness, towards silence, towards, becoming nothing, with no thing, to use the full mystical ascent.

So, yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: Becoming like a weaned child who has quieted themselves and is content,

David Clayton: That's it. That's it.

Geoff Holsclaw: is the goal. So I think, and again, we'll spend quite a bit of time another time on Athea, but it sounds apathy because Meno and Athea repentance and kind of this

David Clayton: can do full sessions on them.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

David Clayton: huge.

Geoff Holsclaw: is the inner working or the things you have to keep coming to so you can cultivate the humility, which then in turn itself cultivates an openness to love others.

And I think you said. It's a way of kind of clearing out the disordered stuff so it's not a clearing out of all emotion or all kind of loves and just becoming, numb. but rather it's just getting the things out of the way so you can be who God made you to be. And that, and I think there's, it also helps you to see clearly, right?

So we have these distortions and cultivating the apathy is a way of seeing truly, which is what you said at the beginning, is that humility is truth in motion. And so we need to see truly. So

Charity and Mercy

David Clayton: And just to add to that, and I'm aware that we are nearly at an hour, it enables this, the, the final point, which is charity and just to touch on that. I know I don't think we've got time to go into it, but it, if, if we were to look at the Desert Fathers attitude, it, which is the, this is the core. reason for, humility, to love, to care, to have, you know.

So, so, um, I'm not sure if it's Abba Besser or Arnold Poeman again, but it, but it's if your brother, if you see your brother in sin, throw over him the mantle of your love. Do not give your heart to that which does not satisfy. I think there's two sayings in one there, but so, so a lot of this, if we're to look at Philokalia and Maximus, true love is unsurprised, non -possessive vision that sees all in God and acts for healing.

So it's that. Caring for somebody. If somebody sins against you, it will go. I think one of the key trends within the Desert Fathers is if somebody sins against you, that's one sin against you, that's one offence. Well, how many times have you offended? So therefore, you know, don't throw the stone. Because...

You haven't got a right to throw the stone because you've sinned as well. So therefore that enables the person to go, that's okay, you made a mistake. I mean, if they keep making the mistake, then obviously they need education and that's, that's another social, reality. But I think for this humility to move towards that aspect of being more social, not being so mimetic and competitive and divisive.

Because currently, it's a difficult world out there. So I think the more we engender this kind of behaviour within ourselves, and develop true emotional intelligence and good behaviours, uh, yeah, it might be a bit better.

Geoff Holsclaw: So just to finish off then,

David Clayton: yeah.

Humility at Work

Geoff Holsclaw: how, and we could brainstorm together, but what would be the way, how could someone inhabit this, say in their work environment, at their local church, in a small group? Because it doesn't mean, what we're not saying is that you don't show up, you don't share your ideas, you don't take responsibility.

You don't hold others to account according to, whatever your job position is. We're in the world doing these activities, and so what, how does all these things that we're talking about how then does it inhabit, like in a work environment, like how does that enhance or work there?

David Clayton: I've just written a paper on that for somebody. 

Geoff Holsclaw: All right. What's the summary?

David Clayton: no, I can't do that. So, what I would say is, self -knowledge, um, courageous in intrapersonal work, which can require accompaniment. So, I'd obviously, being a spiritual director, encourage spiritual direction. And again, spiritual direction is, is a very different Thank you.

modality towards psychotherapy etc because there are three chairs in the room so therefore the divine is involved so therefore the depth can go deeper to the different aspects so that level of accompaniment um It's helpful. And in a work environment, you know, it pans into the world of psychological safety to take the masks off and have frank conversations.

But obviously there are parameters and limits to that. I'm not, not into that. There's something I'm writing at the moment. That's why I'm stuttering a little because this is all kind of processing. So about how much we show up with our masks. True self at work or in social gatherings. How, you know, where is the persona engaging and how emotionally honest can and should we be?

Um, there's a, there's a, Part of the comment is from Eva P, who's an ex -Secret Service agent. And she's like, don't judge the people by being people in their relationships, judge them by their behaviours. And she's a person who, I disagree with some of her stuff, I'll be frank, very clear on that. Because she's like, you should not turn up with your true self to work.

Uh, and I'm like, well, I think, uh, I can't remember her name. One of the other influences I was listening to recently was talking about we turn up to work as we turn up to work. We are emotional beings, we're human beings, and therefore we will have a degree of our true self turning up to work. You know, we don't turn up and necessarily splurge.

So I think this all talks about regulation, self -love, self -care, you know. What, what is it like for you to sit in a room on your own? You know, is that a difficult thing? Is that an easy thing? Because these are the things where we learn where our integration is at. You

I've seen people go into silence in it and it cracked their noodles.

They can't, it really does cause them distress. And that doesn't mean I'm not an introvert, so therefore I can't do that. Introverts and extroverts can go into silence just as, just as easily. Um, that's about it. Intentional focus. So, so, What am I saying? That's a little bit of a ramble and I do apologise.

It's a little bit rambly because it's, you've tied into some stuff I'm writing on. But does that help? Does that clarify? I mean it

Geoff Holsclaw: of like moving in with people in their work, I, you know, I know some of the buzzwords, uh, in the industry these days is like radical acceptance, uh, is how can we just accept reality rather than judge it? There's the non-judgmental that we've been talking about. There's also, another buzzword is radical candor, which is, can we just say what needs to be said instead of dancing around it?

and those all sound like great values, but without a humility or in a sense without. Ego investments that self-protective ego, right? So that could be a way of talking about it is can you engage in relationships and responsibilities, accountabilities without ego protection, ego investment, but rather the humility to allow the person in front of you to be a whole person, but, and then also to pursue the goals of your company without your kind of ego being involved.

I think another one might be just cultivating curiosity of self and of others rather than condemnation. So often it's just bad performance of myself or someone else that you then get on, but then the curiosity to ask deeper questions. And so that doesn't mean not having accountability, but it is being curious rather than condemning.

So those are just a couple things that were coming to mind that might be fruits of this kind of

David Clayton: Psychological safety.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Psychological

David Clayton: it's, it's, you know. 

Critical Thinking and Truth

David Clayton: But, but with that, you know, one thing I've... Come to mind is, is the, uh, that doesn't give an answer. I mean, I facilitate these conversations and see it when it, you know, you find the moments and the points where within the group there, there is that, uh, dissonance.

So there's a necessity for critical thinking. I mean, throughout, I think we'll come back to this time and time again, that there is, otherwise you, you know, what are you grounding it on? You could have a memetic going off there that's grounded in identity and perception. That's not actually grounded in solid thinking.

So, so

Key point I would say to that in those conversations where you're taking masks off, is to be grounded in critical thinking. Why is this happening? What, what is really happening? What, you know, what, what's the underlying truth, you know, and therefore it comes back to the humility, you know, the truth in motion, you

Wrap Up and Next Episodes

Geoff Holsclaw: So we've been talking so many things. This is so helpful. Talking about having a change of mind, seeing reality, clearly making space. And these can be buzzwords. They can kind of be values, uh, but really we're trying to understand all these things from this essential kind of piece of humility that we've been talking about that we're, that David's helping us pull forward.

So this monastic series is gonna continue in a sense. We will probably, we haven't decided, we haven't mapped it all up, but we'll probably spend some more time on metanoia and Athea. Uh, certainly kind of understanding. And David, you mentioned kind of this, this wrestling with sin. And so how does this kind of desert, monastic understanding of sin, how can that help us? We have kind of other lists. The list is not in front of us, but we have some topics, so thank you for taking some time. I know you have lots of projects that you've just been called into, which are taking a lot of your time. So thank you for taking a moment to be with us again, and we'll, we're gonna do this again sooner than later, I hope.

David Clayton: Thanks Geoff. It's been a stimulating and challenging conversation as ever. And I hope our listeners are enjoying the development of this voice from Kili, this process that we're kind of throwing out there. And I, and I'm sure you are Geoff, are really interested in hearing people's feedback, and perspective and thoughts, and any areas that they think, Would you, would you explain that?

Would you talk about that, you know? Because, you know, it's not about our conversation, it's about the bigger, bigger impact. So we want to hear from you, okay?

Geoff Holsclaw: And my hope is that after a little while, we're just getting all these terms and they're Greek terms, they're foreign, but once we lay a foundation, hopefully people will start really getting a sense of like, why this is important and how it's such a valuable resource. So that's, we're just gonna keep doing it.

Even if nobody keeps listening, you and I are gonna have a great time, but I'm sure other people will be blessed. Thank you so much David, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

David Clayton: Geoff. And you. God bless. Bye, bye, bye.