Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

Is Joy Even More Central Than Love? (Replay for Thanksgiving)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw

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What is so important about joy? The great commandment is to love God and others, but is joy even more central than that? Where does joy fit in the landscape of political outrage and cynicism, in the seriousness of life today?

We're talking about it. Looking at why joy and love are so connected.

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Is Joy More Central (for Thanksgiving)

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Welcome back to the Embodied Faith Podcast. Today we're asking something like, is joy more important than love? I know the commandment, the greatest commandment is to love God and love others, but what if joy is even more central to than that? And how does joy fit into our political landscape of outrage and cynicism, as well as the difficulties of everyday life?

So Sid and I are gonna be talking about the centrality of joy. This is a quote from Jurgen Moltmann. So this is, she's gonna respond to this just as you listeners and viewers are gonna respond to this too. This is a quote from Ju theologian, Jurgen Moltmann from an essay called Christianity, uh, religion of Joy.

He asks, how can we laugh [00:01:00] and rejoice when there are so many tears to be wiped away when new tears are being added every day? And he talks about the central tension of Christianity is uniquely. This is a quote, uniquely a religion of joy. Faith is living in the feasts of Christianity, and yet the universal symbol of Christianity is across the symbol of pain, suffering, and cruel death.

How do these things go together? That's actually Mt. Man's question. How do these things go together? So that's what we're talking about today. What is the place of joy in our faith and our walk with Jesus? And is it even more central than love? Well, those are good questions that Waltman raises, and I think they probably echo a lot of the questions I hear people ask in spiritual direction and in coaching of just sort of like, how do I find joy in the midst of what's going on in this?

I mean, there's a lot, when you look around in the world today, there is a lot, uh, that doesn't feel very [00:02:00] joyful, that doesn't feel very bright, that doesn't feel happy. So I think that's a really good question to be asking that, you know, how do we find joy if Christianity is to be a religion of joy then and living in the Christian feast, I like the way that he puts that.

Mm-hmm. Like, um, well right now we just finished, you know, we're in the, the just finished, the Feast of Easter and Pentecost is coming up and those are joyous experiences that are commanded. And we're gonna be getting to this question of, can you command joy, but. Joy is difficult. Let's talk about the resistance to joy.

So the first thing why it's difficult to get into joy, or why it's maybe difficult to maybe even think of a theology of a joy. Well, you are saying things like happy clappy. You say that often when you think about Yeah, people have this sense that like joy is like childish. Uh, that joy is like for the immature, right?

That the sober reality. Yeah, the sober realities of. Life and existence in our political milieu amidst [00:03:00] global warming and exiting a pandemic and violence against all sorts of people, oppression, slavery, that you know, what is the place for joy? Isn't that some people might even call that spiritual bypassing.

You are using a spiritual word to numb yourself to the pain of others. That's terrible. Yeah. I think even, you know, there's a sense that. Joy is sort of this privileged place to be like, you can only be a joyful person if you're, but I'm, even as I'm saying that, I'm disagreeing with myself. You see? Oh, go ahead.

So we'll say that one size. So joy is a privileged thing. Well, I think you could be, joy is a privileged thing. Like you only get to be joyful because your life is not full of oppression and hardship, something, and so that's why you can be a joyful person. But on the other end of that, there are plenty of people who are suffering deeply.

Still full of joy. I'm just thinking, you know, we just got back from, um, the Missy Alliance gathering in Chicago, and I just remember, um, Natasha Strong Robinson spoke one evening and talked about her experience of growing up in the black church, [00:04:00] where, you know, the whole community was experiencing suffering and oppression.

And at the same time they were, as she called it, giving a joyful shout. Mm, amen. And so, you know, creating, celebrating, and experiencing joy together, even in the midst of. Oppression and saying that it's the people who have suffered most, who know most how to rejoice. So let's, so that gets into where we want to go.

So great transition, which is, it seems like people have a confusion about what joy is. Yeah. A lot of times we think of joy merely as happiness. As circumstances going Well, that's why some people might say, oh, joy is a privilege to kind of emotion that. It's naive 'cause it means you're blind to what's really going on.

Exactly. So, but that, that is more, you know, being using joy as a defense mechanism is not joy either. And then confusing joy and happiness is where that that problem comes. And so joy is not circumstantial material circumstances, they do all sorts of study that certainly like happiness has something to do with your material.

[00:05:00] Access to material, not wealth, I don't wanna say, but resources, your needs. And so when your material needs are covered, then certainly you're more joyful. But then they've also found that when you have an excessive amount of material, uh, possessions, you actually become less happy. So, but that's another conversation.

So why don't, I'm gonna hand it over to you. Say, what is a better way of thinking about joy if it's not just happiness? Well, I know that, um, the way that I learned to think about joy from Jim Wilder and Carl Layman many years ago was the idea that joy is the experience of being with someone who is glad to be with you.

And they were talking about that from, you know, like a neurological perspective of the way that infants develop attachment with their caregivers of, you know, when all goes well, a baby has been expected for a long time. Anticipated right mother is pregnant for nine months. If the baby is, you know, sought after and wanted.

Then when that baby is finally born, I'm thinking of friends who just had a baby last week and the joy that they have and like, oh, we finally get to [00:06:00] hold the baby. Look at the baby, smile at the baby, like the baby's here. And so there's a lot of gladness on the faces of caregivers, family, friends, when a baby arrives.

He is meant to continue. And as the baby experiences these faces of gladness, um, throughout their early childhood, then that builds the part of the brain that experiences joy. And you know that, that Jim Wilder also says, you know, that that part of the brain that experiences joy is in the same territory as the part of you that experiences a sense of self.

So that that almost like when you experience joy in gladness of other people to be in your presence and you experience that you know who you are and that builds joy. And so in that sense, joy is very relational. It's either relational in the current moment or it's all of those accumulated memories of other people being glad to be with you.

That then helps you to be joyful even in. Difficult times, even in suffering, even in [00:07:00] times that are really scary because you have that built implicit experience that there are people who are glad to be with me, even if not with me right now. Mm. You know, and that extends with God too, because God is always glad to be with us.

And if you haven't heard, Jeff and I wrote a book about that, um, called, you know. Does God really like me discovering the God who wants to be with us? And it's that God enjoys our presence and always has and has designed all of creation so that he can be with us. And if he wants to be with us that badly, he must do more than just tolerate us.

He must actually enjoy us. And so that sense that joy is a relational thing, it's not just a circumstantial thing. So you could be happy all by yourself because things are going well, because circumstances are good. You can't be joyful if you've never had an experience of being with people who are glad to be with you or knowing the gladness of God to mm-hmm.

Be with you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You wanna add anything to that or, well, just a little bit [00:08:00] about the amplifying joy and returning to joy is, a lot of times we think of when it comes to little children that, certainly infants that the goal is just to minimize distress is that, you know, they're hungry now you have to feed them, or they're tired, you need to put them to sleep.

They're cold or they're hot, they got startled. You need to calm them down. And so it is this idea that the, what the children have are deficiencies that then the caregiver like supplies or provides for or solves or something like that. But actually what the research is showing us that is, while all those things are certainly true, that there's actually this need for what is called like amplifying joy of inputting positive affective states or positive emotional states.

Positive social emotional interactions are actually help build the brain. More, not just as much, but more than the overcoming of distress. And so this idea of amplifying joy, this is where like peekaboo comes in. This is where joyful smiles come in. This is where like little games start to develop between an infant and their caregivers is the infant [00:09:00] wants to experience joy and they're looking for a joy partner.

And there's even before words. Um. Pre, verbally, there's just such rich, dynamic, complicated interactions that little infants have. And of course that grows then in the games with children, you know, and it grows and it, and it takes different forms of adolescence, right? It's complicated. So we're not saying all this is easy, but that is the foundation for kind of the neurological developments, um, in our minds and our bodies and our nervous systems.

And so that idea of amplifying joy, I just think is really important. Just clinging to, just as a side note, this isn't really in the note, but we're being spontaneous, right? So yesterday we were worshiping with our, um, church community in Chicago where we used to be pastors at. And I was just looking at all of these kids in the community who are so much bigger, um, than they were the last time we were there.

But I was also looking at all of the new children, all the little babies, a little toddlers, and there was a little tiny baby sitting two rows in front of us and the older couple in front of us whose kids are out of the house and grown. I just saw them engaging with this little [00:10:00] baby over mom's shoulder, just, you know, wanting, like, making eye contact and the baby was smiling and you know, looking away and then looking back and smiling and just the little game that was being played spontaneously.

We just get drawn into those kind of interactions. Um, we get drawn to babies and babies are drawn to adult faces. And so just as a side note, it's a wonderful reason to have kids engaged in worship in some way, shape or form, because that's building joy. Then sets our brains to wanna connect with others and with God, because joy is the foundation of connection as well.

Right. And that's why, uh, joy is so important. And the kind of the, you know, some of us, I think a lot of times we think of joy as this high lofty concept that has so much emotional, like intensity. So what are some of the baby steps that we can use to get to Joy? And I'm thinking of like gratitude and Thanksgiving.

Like how would you, if someone was like. Okay. Like, I hear that, I hear Joy's importance, neuroscience, blah, blah, blah. I guess theology, the Bible talks about it too, but like, I have a history of trauma [00:11:00] or whatever reason I'm in a, a state of depression or chronic depression. How can I build joy? I can't. That seems so far away.

What would, how would you talk to them about that? Well, I think you already named it, right? The gratitude and, and gratitude is a big one. And I know that it's hard to feel thankful for things when you're in the midst of a really difficult state of being, you know? But there are still things that we can always rejoice in.

There's. There's, I woke up this morning, small things like the weather, or I have food to eat today, or I'm still breathing, like God gives breath every day. Um, and then also just any people in your life that feel at all safe or are at all interested or care at all. Or a therapist who is available and has connection or any of that, like savoring those relationships that feel okay.

Because I think a lot, you know, our brains are predisposed to notice the negative and to really dwell on the negative and remember the negative more than the positive. And so it's a way of sort of changing the lens through which the [00:12:00] filter, right? It's like if you're always looking for the negative, you're gonna find it all over the place and you're gonna remember it and you're gonna store it up.

And it's gonna be easy to say, my day is awful and here's why. But if you set yourself in the morning to say, there's gotta be something good about this day, and I'm determined to find it. Then you will find it. There's gonna be things. Mm-hmm. So they might be tiny and they might be small, but there's gonna be little glimmers of things that are good throughout the day.

Whether it's, you know, someone was kind to me at the grocery store, or the line was short at the post office, or the person let me mer merge into traffic without honking. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, they can be tiny, but they can also be really significant. Like, this person I really care about reached out to me and sent me a text message or.

I had a wonderful conversation with this person, or for a few minutes I felt completely safe. And those are the kinds of things to really be looking for and keeping track of. And then of, you know, on top of that, to build on that to express effort, like appreciation [00:13:00] whenever you can. So if someone does send you a text message, you know, just simply saying, thank you so much for thinking of me.

Or if you have a good conversation with someone saying, I'm really enjoying this conversation, thank you so much. Or. If someone does let you merge into traffic, giving them a thankful wave, right? Or anything just verbally appreciating is so good for our brains 'cause it helps build that relational joy.

And there's like a boomerang effect too when you, so certainly like internal to myself, I'm cataloging my day into things I can be grateful for and appreciate and that turns my like relational circuits on, as some people say. That brings me closer to joy. Then when you express gratitude to other people, you get that boomerang effect because then their face lights up, their eyes become brighter, and then you'll, you see that and it comes back to you.

And that positive, joyful energy then actually lights you up again. And so even if you weren't particularly feeling joyful, having expressed gratitude to, you know, one of your children that maybe you're a little grumpy with sometimes for good reason, I'm [00:14:00] sure you know, but to see that gratitude and that joyfulness circle back to you, and so that's important.

That's why this is a relational. Dynamic, which then also comes into, I know you were gonna talk at some point, probably about the command to rejoice. Perfect. That's exactly exactly where I was gonna go. How does the, so just to wrap it up for people, if we're talking about joy as a, an emotion, uh, as a relational emotion, then how come this is a question that we've had and that you, as your listening have, well then why does the Bible command.

Joy. Doesn't that seem impossible? You can't command an emotion is often how we think of it. But if we think about it in terms of it being a relational dynamic of a gladness to be with one another, and you think about gratitude and appreciation and expressing appreciation, then that sort of brings it home of like if the, if the command is too rejoice in the Lord, always.

Again, I say rejoice. Then there's this, there's this command to, to mindfully and intentionally make the decision to look for the good. [00:15:00] You know, and I'm thinking of Paul's words in, I'm horrible with references. It's Philippians, right? Where he says Whatever is true, whatever is right, whatever is noble, whatever is.

Yeah, that comes right after. That's in the same passage. I think it's good. It's the same passage. So there's the command, right? To think on these things, to set your mind on the good things, so that that's what you're dwelling on, which is going to automatically build appreciation, which is gonna build gratitude, and then sharing that, like rejoicing with others, appreciating others, sharing our gratitudes and our thankfulness is.

Choosing, making the decision to live in a rejoicing kind of way, rather than a grumbling or complaining kind of way. And it's this idea of like choosing to remember that God is with us. So when we look at, you know, we cover this in our book, does God really like me a lot? But you know, if we just look at the book of Matthew, the Angels come and the, the rejoicing that the angels announce that there will be joy for all you know, [00:16:00] mankind because the savior is being born.

He is to be called what? To be called Emmanuel, uh, which is God with us. And then at the end, uh, when Jesus says, you know, I have all authority and I, I send you, go into all the nations, and the last words of that gospel are, and behold, I will be with you always. And so in the, in the gospel of Matthew, you get these bookends of God with us as we explain.

Even the whole Bible is really the story of God with us. And so the command to be joyful is to remember that God is with us. Never alone. You're never alone. And that God delights in us. And if we remember that God is with us and is delighting in us, then that will be, uh, the production of joy within us.

And so, and the same would be true with something like the fruit of the Spirit, as people would say, you know, the first three fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace. Uh, and so the joy people would say, well, that is not an emotion. That's the fruit of the spirit. And I'd say, well, yeah, that's true because the spirit is given to us, which makes it a lot easier to follow the command to be joyful because we're remembering that.[00:17:00] 

God is with us in the Spirit who is producing fruit in us. So it just makes sense that the fruit right after joy or right after love would be joy. And so how do these, so back to our essential question as we wrap things up. So I said, I just wanna say too, you that like a crew of the spirit is like, yes, the spirit begins the work, but that does doesn't, it's not like we can just sit around and say, I wanna be more patient and do nothing to try to grow inpatient.

Or say I wanna be more self controlled and do nothing to like sort of make ourselves more ready to be more self controlled. You know what I'm saying? Like I know it's a good spirit, but it's not just the spirit's work. It takes participation. So I would say in the same way, joy takes participation with the spirit.

It's not just gonna be an immediate download because you know what I'm saying? Okay. That can be a whole nother conversation. Well, that's why we're doing a podcast on. Neuroscience informed spiritual formation, right? There are the graces of God. There is the work of God that we have to receive that we're not in control.

But there's also [00:18:00] neuroscience chapter of receiving and openness to it. There's things we can learn from neuroscience about our bodies, our nervous systems, about the process of becoming mature, of calming ourselves, all these skills and abilities, but still all originates in the spirit of God. Aha. Do it in a self-help kind of way.

God's gifts that we need to be so. That's how we land this plane. So I asked at the beginning, is joy even more central than love? So the commandments to love, uh, love God and love others. You know, that seems like the, the center of Christianity, which in, you know, but that's the center of active, like what our discipleship overflows into.

But the center of how is it that we're able to do that would be something like, and we're not talking about it in this podcast, but like secure attachment, a se secure attachment is formed. Through joyful relationships so that then I can spontaneously overflow and love toward God and love toward others.

But of course I know what you're gonna say. But that only comes from the fact that God first loved us and [00:19:00] then that, and that God is love. Yes, that God is love. So it's really a chicken and egg. But our experience, I would just say developmentally, our experience of a joyful encounter is what we experience first.

Even though, of course that comes out of a loving attachment that comes from, okay, that comes from how we develop. Yes. So certainly there needs to be a caregiver or someone like God who loves us first, who has an attachment, love, a self-giving or sacrificial love, however you wanna talk about that. But we experience that as joy.

And then when we are joy filled people, then we can overflow in love for others. And when we're joy starved, then that's where. Shame comes in. That's where defensive mechanisms come in. Things we would call sense and full responses that keep us from loving, right. Other people that's state of self-protection rather than self give protection instead of connection.

Okay. I see where you're coming from in that as a, like as infants, we need to experience joy first in order to understand love and be able to love and maybe [00:20:00] even infants in Christ, maybe conversion, but I. I don't know. I still like it. It is, I understand where you're coming from and I understand that, and that makes a lot of sense, because joy really is the fuel.

Mm-hmm. That love is fueled by and the experience of love, really relationships and God is love. Amen. And we would have no joy if there was no love. All right. Well, we will keep the conversation going about the central place. No. When do we ever Oh, that's all right. So any last statements before we, uh, before we hit the end of this?

None. None. Alright.