Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

131 (Bonus) Spiritual Direction as Friendship (from the Kellia, with David Clayton)

• Episode 131

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In this BONUS episode (before season 8 starts), host Geoff Holsclaw starts experimenting with regular guest hosts to dive deeper into certain topics.

This episode sees the return of David Clayton, a spiritual director, supervisor of spiritual directors, and a trained behavior analyst and facilitator of psychological safety. 

David will bring us the "voices from the Kellia"—the monastic "cells" in the heart of the desert. As a twist of sorts, we believe the insights of Christian asceticism and monasticism still speak wisdom into our modern life (even our corporate and business lives). 

This time we focus on the role of spiritual direction, connecting it to friendship, vulnerability, and psychological safety. This episode sets the stage for ongoing discussions with David and promises practical advice for spiritual and personal development.

David Clayton is a Spiritual Director and Supervisor of Directors. He is a trained Behaviour Analyst, and is a Facilitator of Psychological Safety. Learn more at Monos-Collective.

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Introduction to the Podcast and New Format

 

Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast, where we are exploring an attachment-based neuroscience-informed spiritual formation, and all the things that spreads out into. My name is Geoff Holsclaw, and this is produced by the Center for Embodied Faith. Today we're stepping out as starting, kind of a new kind of thing with the podcast where we're gonna have some regular guests who are on with us. So for this next season we're gonna be doing some different things and that's great. 

Meet David Clayton: Spiritual Director and Behavioral Analyst

Geoff Holsclaw: And so for today, we have David Clayton with us. He's been on before. He's a spiritual director and supervisor of directors.

He is a trained behavior. Analyst and is a facilitator of psychological safety. He seeks to promote a holistic [00:01:00] approach to that emphasizes both inner development and practical application. He gives his fingers and a whole bunch of other stuff. David, thank you so much for being on with us today. 

David Clayton: Hi, Geoff. 

Geoff Holsclaw: You're gonna be, you're gonna be I think we're calling it our regular reporter, the voice from the Kelli Kill.

I said it wrong man. If we were gonna talk about it, voice from the kill, what does that mean?

David Clayton: Kellia is a group of cells from the innermost desert in the nitrite area, skiis, so around wa Nutra that was around in the fourth century. But, I think the idea of this sort of communication is to be something like, I suppose a, a simple junior reporter from the desert tradition, and to draw some of the ancient understanding from the monastic and. Integrate it in contemporary style with some of your attachment, neuroscience, psychological safety and behavioral analyst, [00:02:00] and see see what comes out in the mix, and in conversation.

Geoff Holsclaw: that's exactly why I wanted to have you on your, an ex. I know you wouldn't call yourself this, but you're an expert on all this monastic, asceticism, spiritual information, spiritual director stuff, but then you also have this deep kind of knowledge in all the in, in. The psychological sciences and behavioral analysis.

Exploring Spiritual Direction

Geoff Holsclaw: Can you talk about really quickly those three things? So you're a trained spiritual director and a supervisor of spiritual directors. What does that mean for the people who might not know?

David Clayton: What does it mean? That's a very, now that's, we'll have a whole podcast on that. I think, Geoff, so well, I tend to describe my work setting across three sections that you described, all connected with a focus on, sort of people and how we grow. I suppose so as a spiritual director, I accompany people in their faith. And in their life journey helping them notice where God is or God might be present or [00:03:00] isn't, and deepen their prayer life and discern their choices. So that keeps them true to who they are. that's the sort of I, I suppose paradigm to develop into the nature of the true self to use that. Quite Merton term but to help them understand who they are and what they value. I trained formally with the Ignatian tradition and with the calm light tradition, and spent a few decades reading books and studying and traveling and sitting at people's feet to listen and learn in various other traditions. Yeah, I do that.

Geoff Holsclaw: and we're gonna be leaning on, especially that for today's episode, which I forgot to mention, the theme is spiritual direction and Friendship and how it connects to the whole rest of life. 

Behavioral Analysis and Psychological Safety

Geoff Holsclaw: So we're gonna get to that, but could you outline really quickly just what this behavior analysis, training, or expertise that are, that you [00:04:00] have?

David Clayton: again that's one of those terms. 

Geoff Holsclaw: I will just 

David Clayton: Yeah. For me, 

Geoff Holsclaw: a trained, David's a trained human lie detector. I think

David Clayton: No. I wouldn't necessarily say that. So it's really about.

Geoff Holsclaw: you were like trained by the FBI or the 

David Clayton: I train with I train with under Joe Navarro on his training course. Yes. And various other people, but yeah, not by those organizations, specifically people who

have been trained by them. Let's be clear,

I am not one of those experts. So for me it's a role that's about studying, be behavior looking at motivation, risk, and sometimes as you describe deception. So it's using insights into how humans behave. And why they act the way they do from a biop psychological neuroscience perspective. So understanding, the seven basic emotions [00:05:00] and how those emotional things and how emotional intelligence works.

So drawing on

people like David Matatu Paul Ekman, David Goldman, et cetera, that kind of thing. So it's understanding how. Why, and I find it gives me a very grounded perspective on the complexities of human relationships. And I think that's

The essence of noticing what's really going on. I put something on LinkedIn recently where I commented I think I, I quoted Ridge on it.

Was it Fieldman that people lie in a conversation. Is it eight times every three minutes or three minutes? Three times every eight

minutes. It's a lot. It's a lot. And it's part of the social cohesion and it is what it is. But there's a reality to how are emotions work with integrity, with, at attach good attachment, to use your kind of

language and bad attachment. So it's really [00:06:00] about noticing that, and that can be done in all sorts of complex ways using technology that analyzes faces, vocal tone,

Language in written text as well now which AI is becoming quite prevalent in. So

the old idea of using a polygraph machine is going out the window as AI comes in to take over in some

cases. 

Geoff Holsclaw: wow.

David Clayton: Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: So that's that behavioral analyst really quickly then you're also facilitator of psychological safety. What is that? And we're probably gonna have a whole episode on that at some point but what is just like, what's the big 

David Clayton: okay. So the big concept is psychological safety is one of the most important things shown by, project Aristotle by Google and endorsed by a, I would say, experts like Amy Edmondson out of Harvard. I trained with the Fearless Organizational Scan and operate from that analysis. So it [00:07:00] is an assessment on. How we respond to failure, how we respond to intercommunication, drawing the median of those quieter voices within group dynamics to be heard, inclusion recognition and development from there. So that mistakes are not that mistakes won't happen, but mistakes might happen more, but they are handled better. 

An individual intrapersonal and in, in inter interdependent, in interpersonal. So

it's, it is very much a a dynamic of moving from fear into safety. So from disordered attachment into good attachment, and we'll pick

upon some of that later. Yeah, and again, that also leans into me being an investigative interviewer as well, but another time.

Geoff Holsclaw: you have all these, like, all these really amazing different [00:08:00] skills and they all in a sense. You talk about, you're focused on people and how they grow, and so you and I know that your heart is spiritual growth ultimately, but there's also these, all these other kinds of areas of growth and bringing it into kind of our modern.

B, even business kind of life or everyday life, like how do all these things fit together? 

Spiritual Direction and Friendship

Geoff Holsclaw: So for today's theme, you've been working on this idea of sp spiritual direction and friendship. You've been speaking and teaching in a different kind of places and sometimes spiritual direction can sometimes just be ca categorized as.

A kind of spiritual friendship. But you're proposing that, actually, maybe we reverse those two things is what if all friendships were some kind of spiritual direction? And maybe I missed saying that wrong, but why don't you, why don't you jump in and fill that out a little 

David Clayton: okay. So yes, I currently have done, sorry, have done some talks on friendship in spiritual direction. I've written on the topic for the [00:09:00] Karma Lights. And I'm doing some further training with the London School of Spiritual Direction in November the seventh. Check out their website, so

Geoff Holsclaw: Whoa whoa. Time out. You're work, you are working with the London School of Spiritual Direction

David Clayton: I know.

Geoff Holsclaw: with Jason Clark, isn't he the, is he? Yeah.

David Clayton: yes. He's just taken over.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, I was just talking to him yesterday. We had a call just to catch up. I've known that guy for years. I'm so glad you guys know each 

David Clayton: I don't, yeah I've just been asked to to run this thing because I'd do, I'd done it as a CPD training session for some other religious orders previously. Oh, grand

Small world. 

Geoff Holsclaw: aside. Very small worlds.

David Clayton: I'll connect up if he's a good lad, that's fine.

We'll, I'll have a chat. So the thi the thing is I've been writing around friendship and spiritual direction, the [00:10:00] dynamics in different religious orders, in different techniques and from a psychological point of view and from a psychotherapeutic, with transference and all of those sort of complexities.

And also the Anam Karara principle. The thing today, we're flipping it, so it's about what we're calling spiritual direction in friendship. So it's that process of internal work, interpersonal development developing our own attachments through in interpersonal connections and things like that.

So from the monastic point of view, the spiritual director the abba, the the mon. That advisors or the, as I like to say, I don't dunno if I pronounce that right throughout this, if I pronounce things incorrectly, I'm not an academic, so I tend to mispronounce things. There we go.

So I apolo 

Geoff Holsclaw: you're the reporter from the desert, so I, if you mispronounce 'em, I'm not gonna 

David Clayton: ah, that's okay.

Geoff Holsclaw: Outside of, there's no proper way of saying Augustine or [00:11:00] Augustine, you could go either 

David Clayton: okay. I was gonna reference him actually, but I didn't do it 'cause I thought I'll keep it in the ancient. 

Ancient Traditions in Modern Life

David Clayton: So the idea is what did these monastic individuals from like the fourth century learn in their discipline? Because now we see things like mentoring and coaching. in the business world, prevalent in group organizations and sports and everything else. It's, oh, I've gotta have a mentor, I've gotta have a coach that you know the pyramid scheme of coaches, training coaches out there is huge. It's just huge. But the monastics did it first. They have this thing that they would call spiritual direction. They would, converse, they would confess, they would enable a safe environment to go deeper in the conversation, to go deeper into the analysis of self and therefore become better.

So the point is that [00:12:00] is how can we learn from these guys eyes and then become

better people in our friendships in so our intrapersonal developing our interpersonal. Realities are learning from this kind of spiritual tradition, which has got so much wealth to it.

Geoff Holsclaw: All right, so I'm gonna say something controversial 'cause I like getting David in trouble. Just kidding. But would you say, I'll say it and then you could analyze whether I'm right or wrong about, but mentoring, coaching, and dare I say, even therapists. All spring out of the ancient tradition of spiritual direction going back almost 1500 years, that they were that the monks, the monastics, the aesthetics and this tradition of spiritual direction of having someone who's walked the road of life further and longer than you as helping you.

Is that true or am I being a little provocative there?

David Clayton: I'd push it [00:13:00] further and go into the development of anthropological religious formation of social engagement where you have the development of the SR from the Middle Eastern tradition, which developed outta the death court and also linked into. Juda and Christianity and things like that.

You you have, if you look at the psychological and anthropological development of the elites, those that would be in a position of spirit, you could look

at it from a position of the shaman the base note of religious understanding. And I'll pick upon your point of emphasizing the monastic. Particularly, I'm studying the hospitals at the moment because I'm I did some work around that years ago and our retreat house was based around hospital tradition. They developed the hospitals, they developed the academia, the universities that you know to educate, was to draw forth a better [00:14:00] person not to create a cog that fits into a. Social framework. So I wouldn't, the language is different. You could drop it down to Coner, where it comes outwards, so to confess, to, and have that deeper conversation. The monastic would call it exaggerates, which is a disclosure of thoughts. I've probably said it wrong, but, hey, language is, please

bear with language is not my strong point. I struggle with English, let alone French.

Geoff Holsclaw: Don't ask me to spell any of these words. All right. Really quick, because I think the language of Guru has translated into like business talk and that, so that kind of gets used. But yeah, nobody calls themself an entrepreneurial shaman spiritual director. But there is a sense that guru, shaman, spiritual director, which are these religious terms, have now been lost, but we're all looking for mentors, coaches, and therapists. And so your hunch just to set up the conversation even more is to say if we're looking for coaches, therapists [00:15:00] and and mentors, why not go back to the ancient tradition and see what could still be learned that maybe we've lost?

Is that a, did 

David Clayton: Yeah, you have to be careful around the term of guru. There's, I can't remember what it means. Is it weighty one.

Geoff Holsclaw: I 

David Clayton: can't remember it Something like that. Somebody called me a guru once, so I was having a conversation with 'em. Yeah, like a guru. You always get enlightened when you have conversations with you.

And I went, I'm just a normal person. I do not wish to influence you. And that's one of the things that difference, so on spiritual direction isn't accompanying process. It isn't a directive act. When you talk about coaching. Coaching is using a, I did these definitions for somebody the other day. Because they really didn't understand spiritual direction. So coaching is using a set of practices to bring about a goal or an outcome. Mentoring is drawing on a person's experience [00:16:00] to do the same, to develop a goal or an outcome, whereas spiritual direction is deeper, some say. If you want to use the therapeutic parameter ca counseling's here, psychotherapy's here, and then spiritual directions down, right down in the depth because it's trying to get to the absolute, so the absolute self and the absolute divine. I think I mentioned that on the last podcast together, tying it together

dovetail. So the, when we use the language, it's very difficult to go. It's specifically like mentoring, coaching. It's not, it is and it isn't. It comes out from that, but it's a much deeper reality and I think in the business world and there are people I heard I don't wanna misquote, I heard Til Swan say, she was speaking some business people and some of them will be quite happy to go back to an Amish kind of way of living a simple spirituality and just carry a bucket rather than deal with the process of being a [00:17:00] millionaire. I speak to coaches and that seems to be a thing. There seems to be a need within people to find value. The existential reality of being human. You can have all the toys in the world, but if you don't know yourself and if you are not connected to use, the kind of language then. There's something missing. There's something

missing, and that, that would be the emphasis. So I'd put onto it, it's not about an achievement, it's about a becoming. It's about, becoming something greater. Finding a connections that are alive and where people begin to really flourish, not succeed, flourish. I wrote something recently again on LinkedIn a quick story. A executive and a chaos magician walk into a bar. They sit down and have a celebratory glass or two of champers [00:18:00] celebrating their successes, their achievements.

Then they go, what we're gonna do next? Let's achieve some more. Then they realize that it is just a cycle of achievement to achievement, to feel. Something. So they wander off to see a spiritual director on the edge of civilization used to sit down. Oh, I'll tell you what though.

Can you just pull up a bucket of water? This is straight out the athema apra, you can tell in places. So they pull a, draw up, a bucket of water out the well is what do you see? Oh, it's dirty. All the sediment's floating around. Okay, put it down. Then. Wait, sit down. Let's just wait. So they sit down, they wait, they rest. He says, look at it. Now. What do you see? It's clear now. I see the reflection of [00:19:00] my face. So you see your true self? Yeah. Oh, go and do the same then.

Sit, wait, slow down. And that's a lot of my work and I, as I lead contemplative groups and train people in contemplation. So that's not meditation, that's into actual contemplation. So practicing towards it. So there's this, these things fit in. The Desert Fathers had this tradition of slowing down and understanding what's actual, not what's presented as a desire.

Go on, sorry.

Geoff Holsclaw: so what, how do some of these spiritual direction emphases, how are you proposing that they might work their way into our friendships, but then also into how we go to work, how we are with our families, raising small kids? Is there what are some of the, how does this kind of live in our modern [00:20:00] technocratic lives?

I know I'm asking the how question and you're just gonna be like, that's the wrong question. We have to, so that's 

David Clayton: it's how's a really, how's a really good thing? 'cause we need to, and that's again to put in one of those nuggets. The part of asking for a word. People would go to a monas, a guy living out in the desert and they would go, can you give me a word? So it isn't a script or a set of. Processes. It's a a piece of advice that is simple, concrete, and actionable. So it what that's about is approaching somebody for advice that lowers a barrier that isn't expert to somebody who needs help. It's

just walking alongside. So it, again, this is where psychological safety is represented in the process. Because people can just simply approach and ask for a word. And the word is [00:21:00] simple, concrete, actionable. Go to your cell and let your cell teach you. Is one of my favorites. We'll come on to that.

Geoff Holsclaw: that's the whole point of the voices of the Kellia is the go to your cell. 

David Clayton: Go to cell learn the, learn what's you, what's. Really happening, but that it creates a safe environment where somebody who can be beginner or disciple, whatever you want to call them, can try to practice and fail and can be accepted and learn to accept themselves where they're at, and learn and grow and safely grow because it's not safe. The thing about psychological safety isn't safe. It's one of the hardest things 'cause it's taking the masks off. I think I've mentioned before, there's a behavioral analyst who comments in one of his books, four phases of remembering what people are like. We we're all broken. We all wear masks.

We [00:22:00] all hide behind masks and don't want people to see, and we're all affected by our early development state.

So that's either, one, two zero to two, zero to seven, or zero to 14, depending on critical thinking development, yeah. So how to, how is the, I think there is something in that.

That doesn't mean and let's be very explicitly clear, we are not saying you need to go out to the desert, it'd be, yeah. I've been out in the desert several deserts and spent time out and done all this, that and the other, and spent time praying. But it's not about the physical desert, it's about understanding that rationale of vastness, I suppose that existential. Reality that what is the true self when facing the reality of which we get so many distractions, so easy just to go, oh, I'll pick up my phone and [00:23:00] I'm dopamine bang.

 

Applying Spiritual Lessons to Everyday Life

Geoff Holsclaw: just to tie off that part about going into the desert is, the first thing that a monk realizes when they go to the desert in the attempt to leave the city and all of its corruptions and distractions, is they realize, oh, I brought the city with me into the desert. Like my heart is full of distractions.

It's full of the city, and really the work of the desert. As I understand it, part of it is to then be able to be the kind of person who can bring the desert, which is where you experience God's transformation and be able to bring that back into the city, right? So that's everyday living. That's wherever you are.

Now that's, it's more complicated than all that, but that's the goal, right? Is that we would be able to find God in the midst of all circumstances and we'd be able to pray without ceasing. And that's what the desert's supposed to teach us. And so that could, in, in principle. Be all of us.

So you, David, have literally gone and prayed into the deserts for, for however how long. And I have not done that. Many [00:24:00] of us, most of us who are listening have not done that. But this, with the things to be learned in the desert as the traditions have developed and that you've learned personally, they still can like.

Impact us, which is why we're gonna have this continuing conversation with you over multiple episodes. Alright, so let's pick it up. I was hearing things about practicing and failing. 

Embracing Vulnerability in Spiritual Direction

Geoff Holsclaw: It's an accompanying process. We're all broken. We hide behind masks. We have our child def affirmations that we're still are these things Then that spiritual direction helps us.

All keep in mind as we relate with other people. Is that kind of what you're explaining or is there something a little deeper 

David Clayton: I, I would say. I'd say part of that emphasis is making vulnerability a non-negotiable part of the process that the relationship or the conversation or hexa the disclosure of thought. I won't try and say that word again, is the, [00:25:00] is hard wiring if psychological safety so that there is the. F being able to let go of fear and be honest. So the spiritual director or the Abba or Emma, the spiritual father or mother, this is not specific to that that's consistent nonjudgmental in its response. And this creates from the kind of science point of view. what we could call a feedback loop where there is risk involved in disclosure where there is reward, because there is acceptance and guidance, consistency. So if somebody has an issue with attachments, then that will develop a safe attachment process so that they become if, to use the spiritual dynamic going fully, safely attached to God. In, in the fullest outcome, or to be [00:26:00] safely attached in relationships so they can be free to be the person that they're called to be in interpersonal relationships.

Yeah. So there's an increased trust in that and there's a growth in trust. it keeps growing and keeps growing. Whether it works or doesn't work, 'cause failure's not I just wrote a part on failure. I'm hopefully gonna get it published, but I wrote on failure in the Ignatian tradition. And psychological safety. And looking at it from a, liminal space, that failure isn't a end point. It is a process in moving towards an outcome. So we

have that trust growing in, that kind of thing. So that gives a willingness to take greater risks are growing in confidence, growing in selfhood, are growing in self knowledge. So just to look at that practice of. 

High Performance Teams and Spiritual Practices

David Clayton: The ABBA and the disciple, the spiritual director, and the directee, this is [00:27:00] exactly the same cycle that builds high performance and innovative teams,

that exact same. So sports teams would be using that same, military, same kind of thing. Obviously with different dynamics because of the context,

You make better people, you make better processes, you make better people, you make better relationships. So that is a container. 

The Concept of the Apathetic Container

David Clayton: We can look at this as a kind of an enablement towards Athea. The di, the dispassion in the kind of stoic tradition the being indifferent in the Ignatian tradition and to be free, not being emotionless, but not reacting from disordered passions or wrong attachments. The

process of letting go can happen within that. So this is a really deep [00:28:00] psychotherapeutic process without even trying.

Geoff Holsclaw: I love that. You mentioned the container, could you just like really quickly list off again what is in that container? You say these are the aspects of like high performing kind of groups or could you I think I got a couple of 'em. I was writing 'em down, but could you just list those again really quick?

I know that was non-judgmental relationships, vulnerability, being able to 

David Clayton: Oh my goodness. Me. Okay.

Geoff Holsclaw: is that some of 'em or is 

David Clayton: No, that's got, yeah, that would be going through the whole process again. That would be a bit

repetitive. I don't, I think looking at the container, the apathetic container is if I was to paint a picture, it's an individual that is non-judgmental. And again, that fits in with the psychological safety of and neuroscience and attachment and all that, non-judgmental, that, that means whatever it is, doesn't require an emotional reaction. It doesn't require a judgment, doesn't require a [00:29:00] critique. If it's a failure, then yep, it's a failure. So you address that failure, analyze it, and then move forward. You take into kids' ation, honestly, that's the thing. The two, two words I use all the time are actual and presented. So if

someone's speaking, I'll go, is that actual or is that presented? And it's often just. Presented and go what's the actual going on? What's behind the mask? What's the shadow work?

What's the leg GMO going off in the background? so it's allowing that inner stillness the spiritual director has to be in a place, or we'll use that term, or the person or the relationship has been in place where that there's still quiet, has a chasm. Where, so that they, they are calm and they can enable another person to be calm. And if you can think of that dynamic. So if we're going to use business in, if you had a manager who's mature, high emotional intelligence, actual high emotion intelligence not presented. [00:30:00] 'cause there's an often a people will present emotion intelligence and you can just taste in the background that they're not, it's just a facade. So that takes work and they, and if they are just non-reactive to somebody and listen and then give small, concrete advice, then you are building a system.

Understanding Intrusive Thoughts and Passions

David Clayton: Do you want me to jump into lag gmo? 'cause your eyes flashed when I said that.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, let's do it. What? What is a leg gizmo?

David Clayton: is lamo? It's a little furry creature that lives on the moon. No, it's

not fun enough. But I just had to drop that P in. Reg Pontus he, along with Cassian, but we'll focus on hous. So calls them the eight evil thoughts. this is where we get the seven deadly sins from and all that kind of thing. The basis of it is, I'll explain [00:31:00] what they are. I'll go through the list, but the basis of it is disruptive thoughts. So if you think about a mill pond and if a mill pond is disturbed by little stones plopping into it. Those little stones that are plopping in it are those thoughts that are negative, that are not moving towards quiet. Or we could say wholeness, or good attachment, or I won't use psychological health 'cause I, I do think Maslow's attitude towards analyzing psychological health is quite helpful to hold in view here that. Psychological health isn't this standard mark, but Maslow describes it as a person who is moving towards actualization, is actually in psychological health [00:32:00] more than somebody who would present being coping. Hope that's

okay to drop that little bing because it ha

Geoff Holsclaw: That's a whole 

David Clayton: Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: To talk about Maslov and his his work and how that may or may not be helpful for spiritual formation, but we'll just 

David Clayton: Yeah. Yeah. Another day. Another day. There's so much. And

again, yeah I'm trying to stick to as much as we put on this list. So the list of the la gmo, so the passions, we'll call them if, is that okay to use that? So

the eight passions, gluttony, lust, or fornication, avarice. Or love of money, dejection or sadness, anger, despondency or listlessness vain glory and pride. So

what they are seen as is that which is [00:33:00] moving against, shall we say. The integral image of the whole self, the Christ image, the icon to use spiritual language. And in a way it's an ancient form of neuroscience operating in this, because if, if we think about that container of. A spiritual direction. If you use that language, that's relational safety, that with contemplated practice or quietening or slowing down, that actively reshapes the brain and its pathways.

So from those that will be reducing things like anxiety reactivity, moving towards peaceful choices, better choices. A better interpersonal dynamic, which develops [00:34:00] a better interpersonal. So spiritual direction knocks onto better friendships, better group,

working better. So it sounds, as if we are going, oh, it's this super spiritual it, these are really grounded, practical realities that can operate. And I am aware of a lot of I'm gonna use the word business, but I don't necessarily just mean in economic but people are, who are active in influence, who are actively seeking that dynamic and going, how, where do I find mindfulness?

Where what can what yoga retreat can I go on? What how can I do this, and this? And here's some practical. Things that you don't really need to. It doesn't mean going and simple. And personally I

like to keep things simple, and if it's moving towards peace and compassion and a better focused attention, then there's gonna be better outcomes. This sort of [00:35:00] looking at that sort of thing shown in, I think it's a book called How God Changes Your Brain by Newberg and Waldman. And there's also, have you got it, seagull? Developing the mind working on the interpersonal brain development. Yeah. Here we go. So I thought you'd have that.

That's why I brock it in.

Geoff Holsclaw: That's right. I have the other one 

David Clayton: Do you? 

Geoff Holsclaw: The Developing Mind by Dan Siegel. 

David Clayton: but so the, yeah so there is, they fit. Is what

I'm, I suppose I'm trying to show.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, you're op. I love this 'cause you're opening the door for so many future conversations, which is why this season and maybe the whole Attaching to God podcast is gonna have people like David who are coming in. To bring in their expertise and we're just gonna keep mulling it over.

But like that whole idea of the lo gizmo or the intrusive thoughts or the [00:36:00] passions I feel like we could spend the whole 

David Clayton: We could. 

Geoff Holsclaw: is, is the idea that in a sense. That whole language of the lo gmo of the intrusive thoughts. And you mentioned, the brain science, right? So this is going to our cultural formation, our personal formation, our neural formations, and kind of those thoughts that just spring up out of us.

Is that a way of getting to, you mentioned the actual and the presented. Is that a way of helping to get to the actual, like what's actually happening rather than just the masks that we're wearing? Or is that not the right way to think about 

David Clayton: I think that's a clear way, go to your cell and let your cell teach you, strip away

the distractions. There's that old adage. Who are you when you sit in a room on your own?

So many people, I, again, on LinkedIn I did a little it was a thing on lying. And it drew out the point. [00:37:00] Brain. Sorry, brain just went, hit you out the point. I think, sorry,

there's a noise in the background. You can't hear the 

Geoff Holsclaw: No, that's all right. The just as the last kind of thought there is for these like intrusive thoughts, which become like the seven 

David Clayton: Yeah. 

Geoff Holsclaw: which feel very judgmental. But the earlier tradition of Aris Pontus and John Caer, they actually just meant them as diagnostic tools.

Like they're just, it's not supposed to be a moral heavy handedness about, having these thoughts, but rather you're supposed to then reflect on 'em. See yourself in the bucket of water a little bit. 

The Role of Spiritual Friendship and Direction

Geoff Holsclaw: And so how does the spiritual friendship or the spiritual direction piece, like with another person, how does it fit in with these 

David Clayton: So that's the point would be to go to your. To realize those things and then to have the psychologically safe conversation, I suppose in a way, if you were to use business and it's that trusted advisor principle of being in a space where you experience those [00:38:00] depths, you recognize, so you would go, for instance, let me just think if I could, is there one. Okay. So Abba Lot went to see Abba Joseph and said to him, Abba, as far as I can I say my little office. I fast off and I pray and meditate. I live in peace, and as far as I can, I purify my thoughts. What else can I do? This sky's doing.

All right. The old man stood up, stretched out his hands towards heaven.

His fingers became. 10 lamps of fire. And he said to him, if you will, you can become flame. So it's the, and that's not the best example, but it's in a way helpful to think that there is always more, there is always a growth. There is always, people go, oh, I've, I had somebody [00:39:00] come to me in spiritual direction and say, oh, I've dealt with this passion, and I went. Oh yeah, of course you have.

Geoff Holsclaw: Good for you. Yeah.

David Clayton: so the point is recognizing going and having a conversation gives you that extra bucket, that extra container to be able to process this at depth and then go back to your cell. So there's this quite it's a very much a, it's a Phil, the Phil philosophy of responsibility, responsible to self and responsible to others in the context of good social. I wouldn't use that term civilization 'cause I dunno, really dunno what it means anymore. It, so it is that. And really we see in the business world this desire, and I'm saying business world, be in all the world. I need a mentor, I need a coach, I [00:40:00] need somebody, a guru, da. So really is that principle. but Francis, let's be clear, Francis Soul said and he was a quite an influencer in the spiritual direction, kindness set up. They're rarest, hence teeth. So just because somebody calls themself a spiritual director doesn't mean that they have done the inner work and carry the quietness to be able to hold others at depth.

If you've done a certificate in spiritual direction, that doesn't make you a spiritual director, that means, a method. If you've done coaching certificate, that means, a method of coaching that doesn't make you a good coach. And that's one of

the things. So, it's a matter there's a, there's an actual to it.

Geoff Holsclaw: You could add pastor and therapist to 

David Clayton: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of psychotherapists that I know that I go, you are bonkers. [00:41:00] So

anyway, I say that in jest, honestly.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Alright so this is just an initial conversation, an initial kind of sounding the voices, from the Kellia, from the desert, from our, from the cell. Any last thought that you're like, oh, I want to be sure that, I leave kind of people with this. We've been going deep, which I think is great.

And I know that when we have time with you as we move on, like making it practical as the sayings from the desert, advice that's simple, concrete and actionable. Do you have anything? Do you have, I'm asking you for a word, David, do you have a simple, concrete and actionable word for us today?

So much pressure, huh?

David Clayton: no, I can't. I'm just thinking which way to go with it. I think,

Geoff Holsclaw: [00:42:00] Why don't we just, we can just give it a minute and let the spirit lead you.

The Importance of Humility and Integrity

David Clayton: well, I think the emphasis here, I think it's a useful one. If we're going into the actual, that we haven't spoken about humility, we haven't used that specific term. So I think, it is I'd quote. Again, athema Patra. 'cause I gathered a few quotes just in case. It is a great thing to be able to say with your whole heart. I and the father God are one, but surely it is a greater thing to say. I and the leper are one, and to remember, we're all vulnerable. We're all broken. And that offering safe, unsafe, where [00:43:00] people can be honest and integral and take their masks off is such a gift. But again, it takes responsibility and it takes integrity. So I think my final point would be to remember that none of this can happen without integrity, without humility,

without actual character, which takes. Time, it takes formation and that takes somebody else helping you along the journey. I give thanks to those people that have been my spiritual directors over the years. I would not be where I'm today without their being able to contain my conversation with them, my journey. I would, yeah, I think, we've covered some, but there is so much to do, Geoff. There is so much to do.

Geoff Holsclaw: So we'll have to do this again.

David Clayton: love to.

Geoff Holsclaw: I think that, and I wrote this down for, I have lots of follow up conversations that I've been typing while you've been [00:44:00] talking is, because I think sometimes people misunderstand in the spiritual tradition outside of the monks and monastics, right? Just reading any of the spiritual literature, you'll regularly run up to this.

the humility, that sometimes comes across as like a radical self, a basement or even radical self condemnation that you hear, but. I think it's the spiritual kind of mentors creating this space of vulnerability and saying, Hey, even I, that you put up on a pedestal am still of, the wretched ones.

Even all of us are still wounded and that what looks very negative. 'cause in our modern mind, it's all about self-esteem and productivity and positivity, right? But if you're gonna create a culture that's really vulnerable, that's open. To the brokenness and woundings of others.

Then, like with the psalmist, you just have to say I too am the wretched. I too am the wicked. I too am numbered amongst the damned. And if I can say that, then you can say that. And if we [00:45:00] can all say that, then we can be open and then we can start moving forward. And that just, am I getting that right or am I 

David Clayton: That sounds beautiful. I, we could go into a thesis and discipline, which again, is another thing

around the coaching that, that we were gonna talk about, but haven't got in this time,

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh it's on the list.

David Clayton: yeah, it's not in a basement. It's, not on the base. Humility. I would throw in, because I'm a bit of a gardener. I would throw at hummus, the soil the basis of the growing area of the soil where things decompose. So there has to be a breaking down to bring life. Ignatian spirituality specifically talks about life from death. In, on his

tomb there's an image of him laying and the, there's a tree growing out of his stomach to express that. It didn't end and

Geoff Holsclaw: That's St. Francis.

David Clayton: no, it's in Ignatius of Loyola.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, really? So there's pictures of him [00:46:00] like that? I have 

David Clayton: Yeah, I've got it in a book. I, had to show somebody once, they didn't believe me. It's on his tomb somewhere.

Geoff Holsclaw: Wow. Okay.

I don't really know how to wrap this up. I'm already asking you to wrap it up. Now. I've done the preacher's thing where I didn't wrap it up, but we just went on another circle around the thing and I started talking about humility and vulnerability.

But thank you so much David, for being with us. You bring such a wealth of of knowledge as well as practice and experience. And I got a list of humility, the passions, log, ismo, asis, discipline. I have a whole nother list somewhere else from past conversations. So we're just gonna add to it and we'll just keep.

Slowly, the bringing in the great riches right from the desert and seeing, laying them out bit by bit and seeing how it can, help us. Thank you for being the guide for us.

David Clayton: No worries. Thank you for the conversation and I hope people find it really helpful in a way, and it brings some inspiration and we get better in interpersonal lives. We live better in, whether it's in, in high economics or [00:47:00] spirituality sectors or political sectors, or, that we really do the work, inner work and get the outer work and, better people for it.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is, so we're signing off from our desert correspondence and we'll do this again in another couple, four or five episodes. I.