Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

119 Finding Miracles Between Doubt and Joy (with singer-songwriter Andy Squyres)

• Season 7 • Episode 119

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In this episode of the Attaching to God podcast, host Geoff Holsclaw chats with singer-songwriter and poet Andy Squyres about his faith journey, his time in Santa Cruz, and reconciling disappointment with hope. 

They discuss his creative process, dealing with grief and deconstruction, and the significance of embracing both doctrinal depth and authentic emotional experiences in faith.

Andy Squyres is a songwriter and author born and raised in the Bay Area of northern California who for the last quarter century has been working from the suburbs of Charlotte, North Carolina.

Check out his latest EP, "Miracle Service".

Join the launch team for Landscapes of the Soul by filling out this form (hit the title to buy the book). We need you to propel this book forward. 

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Introduction and Guest Introduction

 

Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast. I'm your host, Geoff Holsclaw, and as always, it is produced by Embodied Faith. We're doing something a little bit different, you know, a lot of times I'm a big idea person, uh, but we're kind of shifting a little bit to kind of ask about people's stories, especially, uh, in this episode.

So I just met this guy, Andy Squyres. Uh, he's a singer-songwriter. He's born in the Bay Area where I'm from, Northern California. I think we originally met. Kind of through vineyard circles, but then I said something like, oh, you're, you're in Santa Cruz, and then you're like, I'm from Santa Cruz. And I was like, I got to know Andy.

Um, so he's also a writer and a poet of the poet priest, uh, kind of is, is it called a book series? I don't know

Andy Squyres: Yep.

Geoff Holsclaw: [00:01:00] Okay. Book series. And then the really quirky thing is that you and your wife, Amy, actually knew Cyd before I knew Cyd 

Andy Squyres: Yeah. 

Geoff Holsclaw: in Mission Springs ca. Is it a campground or a

Andy Squyres: Yeah, it's a retreat center. Yeah.

Reconnecting with Cyd and Early Impressions

Geoff Holsclaw: So why don't you, why don't you just start off that, how did, how did you know where you from and then how did you know Cyd and what was she like? Because you know, before even I know, and before any of our listeners know, what was your impression of Cyd?

Andy Squyres: Oh, this is so great. Well, we should let your listeners know that, you know, uh, we, we came, you know, just on tour, we, we saw you and Cyd and it was the first time I'd seen Cyd in 30 years. So quite a bit interesting, uh, thing to experience. Uh. Meeting somebody again after 30 years and it just makes you go, wow, life is such a, a vapor.

Right? But, uh, but yeah. Amy and I are originally from Santa Cruz, California, and we had this little job working in the Santa Cruz mountains at a, a Christian [00:02:00] conference center called Mission Springs. And Cyd happened to join the staff at some point as, um, she was working for an outdoor education program there as a, a teacher.

Uh. A guide as you know, just taking kids through all kinds of science stuff and uh, yeah. My first impression of her was that she was just kind of like we all were at the time, you know, young and just. In awe of the world and wanting to know more about all of it, you know, and, um, not really knowing what we didn't know.

And, uh, yeah, I mean, I know she, at that, at that time in her life was very much on, uh, a se the seeking part of her journey with the Lord, you know. So I, I, I don't think she'd mind me saying it out loud, but she was, she was always going down the Moss Alley, which was the local blues bar, you know, in downtown Santa Cruz.

Um, just kinda [00:03:00] hanging out down there. 'cause I think she was, um, she was, I think at that time she felt like she was finding more of God down at the Blues bar than anywhere else. So, which I can very much relate to.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, well, I always tease her, uh, and I always say if we had met each other six months earlier than we did, we would've hated each other. And partly is because I was still such a, like a stuck up like Pharisee of a Christian and she was still sorting out her faith and was still on a little bit more of the wild Cyde.

But we, you know, God had kind of like. Broken off some of those rough edges for both of us. And so we can kind of meet in a place where we could kind of start accepting each other, uh, and kind of growing with each other. 

Faith, Disappointment, and Deconstruction

Geoff Holsclaw: So well, so you've had, uh, and we, we won't get into like all of your life of ministry and music and all these things, but, um, you've kind of are.

You've carved out a little bit in your s songwriting, um, kind of a, a faith perspective, and you, and I probably am [00:04:00] getting this wrong, but I wanted to jump right in during your show. So Andy came up. Andy and Amy came up to Grand Rapids, um, just, I don't know, a couple weeks ago, a couple months ago for a show.

Right. Uh, and that's where we kind of, uh, you guys have your little reunion. I'd like to think we hit it off a little bit, but you

Andy Squyres: Oh, for sure.

Geoff Holsclaw: You were saying something like, I'd rather be the person that hopes in God for everything and then is disappointed rather than the person that hopes in God for nothing and you're never surprised.

So could you reiterate, is that close could, and then could you kind of explain, uh, what you mean by that?

Andy Squyres: Yeah. So I, in the past 12 months or so, I, well, maybe two years is, is a better timeframe, but I've been writing again for my next record and, uh, you know, the, the last couple records have been dealing with disappointment, grief, uh, maybe disillusionment with. Either life or my, or God himself or my relationship [00:05:00] with him on some level.

And, uh, you know, just kind of swimming in the, the waters of, of deconstructionism that we're all pretty much. Very aware of at this point, and it just absolutely feels like a dead horse at this point, you know that. But anyways, it's there. And, uh, so when I was heading into my next riding phase, I was trying to pay attention to what was going on with me personally.

And, um, I just, I was driving through this little California desert town. 

Miracle Service and Rediscovering Faith

Andy Squyres: And I just had this weird experience one day where I, I happened upon this little tiny church in the middle of nowhere and they had a sign on this church that said Miracle service every Wednesday night at 6:00 PM and I was just, I was struck by the audacity of that. Sign, like, first of all, miracles are on the calendar. That's, that's funny. That's absurd there. But there's something precious and tender about it too. You know, kind of [00:06:00] like some type of innocence that I felt. Beckoning me again, you know, like, 'cause I, I, I've grown up, I've, I've been, I've been in the world of following Jesus for many, many years and I've had some form of my faith.

I. Uh, I've had to rethink some concepts about God, and, and, and in that work, in that rethinking, I probably let go of some of the better parts of what I was given early on, and I think early on in my faith I was given this childlike. Trust, expectation, what have you? Just kind of just a dependence, a reliance on the living God.

And I think when you go through disappointment and grief, I. Whether knowingly or unknowingly, you build up these defense mechanisms against being [00:07:00] disappointed again. And part of that for me was I quit. I quit asking God for things. I quit asking him for help. I quit asking him. I quit praying to him as someone who would answer me. And while that might be practical and useful on some levels, I think ultimately what it does is it, it dampens down the better parts of your heart that one uses to connect with God. And so I, I kind of, out of that, developed this little mantra that I would, I would rather ask God for everything. Not get anything from him in return rather than never go to him at all. And so maybe, maybe even that is like an immature or [00:08:00] underdeveloped thought, but it was my initial thought in, in, in a return maybe to, uh. A second naivete. I don't know. Some people call it that. Some people call it re-enchantment. I don't know. All I know is that as a human creature within myself, I've recognized that there's a need for some type of supernatural exchange with the God that I.

That I love and worship, you know, it, it can't be purely intellectual. It can't be purely, uh, a, a moral compass. It can't be purely an aesthetic or an ethic or an ethos. It, it, it is all of those things, but it also has to be relational.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Squyres: Whe whether it's difficult or easy, that's. You know, that's a whole nother thing, but I definitely need my, my [00:09:00] friendship with God to be more open than closed.

Geoff Holsclaw: Okay, so, and that was. 

Navigating Faith and Disillusionment

Geoff Holsclaw: That was your work of noticing that you'd created some defense mechanisms, uh, about disappointing. Did you see that also, um, maybe the word infecting is the right word, your, like other relationships or like posture toward the world, or was it mostly just with God?

Andy Squyres: Yeah, I wouldn't say it was affecting my other relationships. I would say that it was more of a. Of a way of being in the world. And, and maybe, um, maybe, I mean, you know, I trust that the work of the spirit is always ongoing in my life. And so even in my seasons of, of, uh, disillusionment, I, I don't maybe worry about it as much as maybe I did when I was younger, but, um. I don't think I ever put up my dukes, you [00:10:00] know, I, I don't think I ever sh sh you know, there was no shaking of the fist to God, like permanent disrepair or permanent disconnection. But it, there's an old Ro Robert Frost, the poet. Um. Has a saying that I just love so much and I'm gonna slaughter it. But he says something about, you know, I'll keep telling jokes about God.

Uh, you know, because he keeps playing this big joke on me. You know, that it's, it's this, this idea that there, there is something absurd and funny about all of this. Um. But probably there, there was some cynicism and, and I would say some unbelief that I would, I probably ultimately became afraid of, which is what kind of directed me back towards more of a softness, you know?

'cause I've been around people that are, [00:11:00] you know, um. Extremely hurt, extremely wounded by the world some way, and they've, they've attributed that hurt as coming from either God's lack of intervention or maybe he just doesn't exist at all.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of us run into that. I know. Um, I. A lot of people have been leaving the church, not necessarily even because of their own faith experiences, but just the state of the church, uh, as like this deep disappointment, which we could definitely get to, but do. When you look back then, like where you are now and then look back at kind of your faith journey, what can you identify any resources or anything that helped you kind of navigate that in a slightly different way than maybe some people who are just.

Who just leave the faith altogether? Like did you have some deposits early on as a child or like the community you were from or does that make [00:12:00] any sense?

Andy Squyres: it really does. I will say that. 

Charismatic Roots and Personal Tragedy

Andy Squyres: So, so my journey in a nutshell is I was raised Pentecostal. I was, I was, uh, raised in a. The Church of the International Foursquare Gospel, which is a little, um, denomination started in the early 20th century. Uh, kind of a weird little outlier group of people.

You know, I, not only was it like, um, Pentecostal, but it was also deeply dispensational and, um. Uh, so a lot of those things I ended up rethinking. Uh, but I. But I am forever grateful for the roots of my journey and, and just an incredible amount of good things were given to me. And then when I became a young adult, I became a part of a church [00:13:00] community, uh, that was charismatic in practice, explicitly evangelical.

Uh, and we had our own sets of, um, kind of. Good things and bad things as, as all churches experience. Um, but I will say that, uh, there was a ongoing, um, articulation of the power of the Holy Spirit that became very important to me and uh, and, and marked me deeply and, and still does to this day. And I will say that. As a community, we had, we had a, a tragedy strike in our church community that forever altered all of us, but I can only speak for myself in terms of, of, um, how it made me rethink about the way God [00:14:00] works in the world. So, so as Pentecostal charismatic people, we have this, uh. Deeply held assumption that the spirit of God is always at work in an ongoing sense.

It, it's not that he stopped speaking in the canon of scripture, he stopped working in the canon of scripture or that everything is predetermined and on autopilot. So, so in, in, in my tradition,

Geoff Holsclaw: I can just say amen to all that.

Andy Squyres: Right. I mean, we still believe that there is this, you know, uh, there's a, there's potential out there and we are working towards the potential.

Um, and, and, and, but, but the downCyde of that belief is that, uh, ways of thinking have developed around, um. Us being able to move God past [00:15:00] or beyond, or even through kind of the general sovereignty, you know? And, and so we have, we would have, we would have these strange doctrines like decreeing and declaring things that we see in the text of scripture in order to build like. Hedges of protection around our lives, right?

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Andy Squyres: So to me, those are all just like ultimately idols that God will, in his infinite wisdom, destroy at some point in your life, maybe sooner, maybe later. I don't know how that part happens. Maybe it's just embedded in the world that he's created. But that's what ended up happening for me, is that I, I had these.

Held beliefs that were met by a reality that they could not hold. And then I had to rethink. I had to rethink everything. So, but [00:16:00] I would say that what kept me out of, maybe what led me to that deconstruction, uh, the, the bad thinking. My church's theology that led me to that deconstruction was also, there was also good thinking within that theology that helped me maintain

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Andy Squyres: and keep going.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Okay. 

Balancing Devotion and Disappointment

Geoff Holsclaw: Alright, so it was like high expectancy of God at work, but then also huge disappointment at an early age in your life or your faith journey that then, which in one sense with those experiences in mind, and you read scripture, you're like, oh, the Bible has tons of room for both of

Andy Squyres: Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: especially when you read the Psalms.

Um, the Psalms have been. Where I've been living for like the last year plus. It's interesting that, because you talk about like, like the charismatic and then these kind of, the sorrowful My, my experiences in Santa Cruz were, I think, you know, 'cause I went through like [00:17:00] a, I haven't really shared this on this podcast, um, like kind of a pre deconstructive kind of moment before like all the popular stuff.

Um, but it was couched in this really interesting, um. Dual experiences in Santa Cruz where I somehow got a hold of, um, the devotional classics by Richard Foster, which was just like outta my baptist fundamentalist devotional time. It was just this whole other world of like contemplative and spiritual practices based faith that was just like this, this hidden.

Andy Squyres: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: Giant freeway that, you know, I didn't even know about, which really started nurturing my soul. But then I had these really intense spiritual warfare encounters that I had no lang, I was not raised charismatic,

Andy Squyres: Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: warfare. Um, as an idea was maybe as far into the charismatic Pentecostal world. You know, I read Frank Pereti like,

Andy Squyres: Yeah, yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: love.

Right? But. I had like a string, [00:18:00] a multiple of like these, like basically power encounters, uh, spiritual warfare where it's like Jesus, like was victorious and it's like, and it was like undeniable. And so these two things ended up becoming, we could say even a hedge of protection for me, we

Andy Squyres: yeah, yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: but the.

They were these other kind of variables that in the midst of, you know, I study philosophy, I love all this stuff, right? In the midst of the other doubts, there were these kind of other variables that were, that undeniable. Um, so you. You, I'm trying to formulate a question I wanna transition to, uh, a song you wrote.

Songwriting and Theological Reflections

Geoff Holsclaw: You mentioned, uh, uh, kicking a dead horse about deconstruction, but you wrote a song called Dead Horse, uh, and you, it seems like you hold these two things together, um, where kind of throughout the, the chorus, you know, a couple times you say, my love is only a whisper. Now after you kind of trace these tragedies that you've lived through, but then you say, but nothing is wasted with you as a prayer.

But then right at, in, in [00:19:00] one place, you kind of have this, uh, statement, which is kind of a, maybe a question mark, uh, which I think is a good tension, which is you kind of say, well, either nothing is wasted, or everything is, uh, which is kind of that radical, either belief or unbelief. You know, it's either like say yes or say no, but we can't just live in that.

Kind of, could you kind of explain either that whole song or just where some of those lyrics kind of were landing,

Andy Squyres: Yeah. So, yeah, so the, uh, just, I guess, I guess I'm, I'm always in reaction to my upbringing. Maybe this is true for all of us, but the, the, the things that I'm having to make sense of is that within the Holiness tradition, which is really. A, a stream out of puritanism or, or pietism. There's a high, high value on devotion. There's a high, high value on zeal.

So you see it, you see it today in the charismatic experience where, [00:20:00] um, there's, uh, there are, there's a lot of language around prayer and worship that. Um, is connected to we, we show how serious we are about our love for God by the amount of time or, or the, or the volume with which we pray and sing. And I'm simplifying this, but just for the sake of this conversation, of course it's a much broader, um, uh, situation.

But if. If you are thinking about God and your relationship with him, only on the terms of how much I can sing, pray, wave my banner, shake my tambourine witness, um, go to the revival, go to the [00:21:00] conference, go to the. Deeper life club meeting, buy all the books, do all the things that good Christians do. Uh, that will only work for me as long as I have physical and mental and intellectual capacity for it.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Andy Squyres: I'm really in trouble if I run out of all of those things and. I, it's been a great grace to me to discover that once I ran out of all the cares to lift my hands and worship all, all the desire to sing loudly on Sunday when I lost, when I, when I, I couldn't read. One more Christian book. Won't go to one more conference.

One more service, one more prayer like I lost. I had no more dams to give, right? Um, to discover that even if all I [00:22:00] have left is this whisper of a faith confession, that that's enough. That that's enough. I don't think that my yes has to be loud. I don't think my yes to the spirit of God needs to be. Fervent even. And, and, and what I, I think that it, it, it, how do we ascertain what faith looks like? So in my previous thought, I would say, well, true faith looks energetic. True faith looks like enthusiasm. True faith looks like some type of. Outward expression. And now, now I would say that that's not necessarily the case. It can be the case, but it doesn't have to be. Um, and you know, probably there's a big contingent within the body of Christ like that are, they probably do need a little outward expression now and then, like they probably do need to get in touch with their emotions.

And I mean, [00:23:00] that's probably the better part of. The charismatic expression is that there's a theology of the body that is very important that, you know, you won't really find in among the frozen chosen, you know, that it's, it's conducive to being a thriving human being. But, um,

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, you kind of get those extremes where maybe in the charismatic Pentecostal you have that true faith is really exuberant. Um, expectance, uh, certainly it feels things, you get the feelings. And if, but then the flip Cyde is, is if you didn't get the feelings, then maybe that worship service wasn't so great and maybe we should go find a different conference or different faith healer that has more of the zap in their hands, more of the power, more of the anointing.

And so you're realize like anointing hunting, uh, right. So. That'd be one extreme. And then the other is to just say no to that. Just be like that, you know, we have doctrine or maybe we have liturgy. Uh, we, you know, we have our lane. And whether I feel the fields or not, it's [00:24:00] nothing that God has ever promised.

Uh, right. But, you know, we make our confession week after week or something like that. Um, but both of those in a sense are, I would think, are, are kind of coping mechanisms for anxiety, uh, rather than, and for disappointment rather

Andy Squyres: yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: Rather than saying something like, well, doctrine is important, feeling is important, but there's even, what if there's like something more?

Clinging to Faith Amidst Doubt

Geoff Holsclaw: So that, and that, that was definitely a leading question, but I, so what is the, something more I would say it's, it's something like I. Obviously this, this podcast is called Attaching to God, but, but scripture doesn't really talk about like attaching, uh, in, in like the clinical sense, but it does talk about clinging, uh, you know, in Psalm 63, um, you know, says My soul clings to you.

But then the answer to that is, and your right hand upholds me. Uh, so I clinged and then Paul, I, I. I would like to think he has this scripture in mind. You know, where he goes on and on about all the things he left that were dung, you know? And he says, I wanna know [00:25:00] you, the power Christ, the power of your resurrection, and the participation in your suffering,

Andy Squyres: yes, yes,

Geoff Holsclaw: like him in death so that somehow I might attain to the resurrection from the dead, but I haven't already obtained this. And he says, but I press on to take hold of for that. For that witch Christ took hold of me. That's act, it's so funny 'cause that was my life first before I learned anything about attachment is this idea of the take hold.

So how has, and so for me, I think that's the third thing. It's like, knowledge is great, feelings are great, but what are you clinging to? Uh, how have you and May, and you could refer to your songs, your songwriting, but like how have you seen either the ups and downs of that clinging process like with God, I.

Exploring Faith and Doubt

Geoff Holsclaw: Okay. Does that language help you make sense of anything or, or take us in a different direction?

Andy Squyres: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't think I've ever taken a full blown, um, safari into atheism, [00:26:00] but, but like I've, I've kind of like stood on the edges of either, you know, object unbelief or just like. Like taking a gander at other philosophies or, you know, just taking a survey of the world's religions and just kind of checking things out just to make sure I am, you know, like doing a little critical thinking at some point.

You know, and when I get to those places, I, I don't know, maybe this just could be. I don't know, uh, uh, Stockholm Syndrome or something like that. 

Haunted by Christ

Andy Squyres: But, but I feel, I feel so haunted by the man, Christ Jesus. I, I feel like I don't know where else to go. Actually. I don't, I don't know. Um. A better, I haven't, I haven't [00:27:00] witnessed a better source code than Jesus Christ and I, I know that sounds so profoundly evangelical, but I, the more and more I, I kind of like reduce what I'm hoping in and what I really think about the world.

I have to be honest and admit. I, Jesus said, you believe in God, believe also in me. And I, I can feel a reverberation and a resonance on those words coming through the canon of scripture to me in the year 2025. That absolutely, um, just shakes me to my core and. I don't, I, I'm not gonna say I have a really deep and profound prayer and devotional life.

I really don't. I'm not, I'm not that good at being a Christian, but I really do have, I would say, an [00:28:00] unshakeable and deep thirst for, for Jesus Christ. And. Admittedly, admittedly, I'm sure Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens or whoever could just slaughter all my reasons, you know, philosophically speaking.

Um, but I is is it, is it politically correct? 

Finding Happiness in Faith

Andy Squyres: To say I feel happy. Like that's literally what I feel. I feel happy in the Lord. Like I, it is just like,

Geoff Holsclaw: I love it.

Andy Squyres: just, so, I just am so ready to say it. Like, and, and, and that happiness in the Lord allows me to, you know, write,

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Andy Squyres: talk about, I. Gritty things in my music and in my writing.

It's not, it's not like I'm, I, I'm not looking for a [00:29:00] sanitized version of this by any means. You know, I'm not looking to create a sanitized version of this. Um, I don't think I answered your question at all, but.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, no, no, I think, I think you did because like a lot of what I am, you know, now thinking about faith is just goes and what I think of like, um, when it, when scripture talks about loving God, it's just basically like who are you clinging to or what do you clinging to?

Andy Squyres: yes,

Geoff Holsclaw: Um, and. 

Secure Attachment and Faith

Geoff Holsclaw: I think while you were talking, you know, and a bit ago you were talking about a child like faith in the second naivete, you know, I forget what Psalm it is, but it talks about, you know, being like a weaned child sitting in a lap, and the idea of a weaned child is basically one who no longer has a reflective need to like munch.

On their mother. Right? They're no longer feeding. Right? And so, and so we, and child that peace on, um, a parent's on the mother's lap would mean something like a secure attachment. Like, I delight in [00:30:00] your, in our relationship. I'm not getting anything out of you. You're not getting it. We just are

Andy Squyres: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, and so that's kind of what came to mind is that, um, and, and I think, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but like the way I think of secure attachment and faith in it.

It opens. What the research says is, is that you're able to go out and explore the world

Andy Squyres: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: explore in an honest way and, and what that often means like in a therapeutic session. So a therapist becomes an attachment figure who helps you explore the dark things of your life that you didn't have safety or courage to explore.

And I, you know, I think the Psalms are like this. I think some of your music is like this, where it's like you can explore all the highs and the lows of life with God because you. You're clinging to God, but you're not lying about what that, you know, it's same with Israel. Like, um, the renaming of Israel as he wrestled with God is like, you just now, you limp, you're limping now.

Right? You wrestled with God and you came out limping and that's now a reality that, you [00:31:00] know, so I, I just love what you said about, is it okay to say I'm happy in the Lord? 

Death Defying Joy

Geoff Holsclaw: So you did write a song, which I loved, which is called Death Defying Joy. And, and this is where I feel you have a lot of the tension there, and we can maybe just end on reflecting on this, but in the, I think it's the bridge.

You say in speaking to God, you say in you, I am empty in you. I'm full in you. I'm living with or without miracles. Uh, in you, in your presence. Struck down, but not destroyed. Uh, live or die? I am filled with death. Death defying joy. I, sorry, I butchered that. It sounds much better when he sings it, but, uh, so it's all these things.

Intention. How did like, just share for maybe it's part of this joy of the Lord, this happiness that, uh. Uh, this unpolitically Correct. Happiness in the Lord. Uh, where did, is this, is this song part of your new album that you're, or is

Andy Squyres: Uh,

Geoff Holsclaw: because I know you released it a couple years ago. Is it like a standalone kind of

Andy Squyres: it's just a standalone track. I, um. [00:32:00] Man, I love, I like, like in terms of just like a useful bridge, that's probably one of my favorite things that I've ever written in terms of like something that people can just sing together and, I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's rare that I can distill things down to like some simple words.

Like I wish I could do more of that, but I, I wrote that whole song. 

The Role of Miracles in Faith

Andy Squyres: As, as a disappointed, charismatic actually, and, and because I'm constantly around people who are always praying for miracles, right?

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm.

Andy Squyres: And it, and in our pursuit of miracles, we have this habit of lying to ourselves because we think that faithfulness, what faithfulness looks like is.

Is only articulating what we hope for not actually what we're living in.

Geoff Holsclaw: right.

Andy Squyres: And, and you know, [00:33:00] one thing that charismatics often defend against from non charismatics is we feel like we've gotta do, God, we've gotta protect God's supernatural power, reputation, like, and so we're, we're working really hard. To say, to talk, you know a lot about all the things that God does for us in terms of healing and provision and all these things, which I actually believe in.

I actually do believe that God cares about our lives and he actually helps us and he actually intervenes. But if you read, Paul, if you read Peter. Many of the New Testament writers, you cannot come away with the idea that the only thing that God does is heal the sick. That the only thing he does is free people from imprisonments and from all manner of heinous [00:34:00] things. And, and you know, Paul goes so far as to say, man, I'm so glad I didn't even baptize some of you, and I'm really relieved that all I knew among you. Was Christ in him crucified. And you know, far be it from anyone to reduce the cannon of Paul. Like he does it himself, man. He's like, you know what? To know Jesus Christ and him crucified and, and to partake in his death and to partake in his sufferings.

Like these are, there's so much text that my people just tend to ignore. And so.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right,

Andy Squyres: I felt like I needed some encouragement because first of all, we pray for the sick every Sunday, which I'm glad we do, but we have people that are chronically sick in our midst, and so I'm always wanting to make room for their lives to have meaning in the midst of people who are contending for healing.

And the only way I knew to [00:35:00] do that is to like, whoa. Invoke, invoke Paul, like, you know, and he's the king of abounding in a basement, isn't he? You know, like, and I, I, that has been such a balm to my soul. I know how to do all of these things. I know how to be abased. I know how to abound. I know how to do all of these things, you know?

And, um. 

Embracing Suffering and Honesty

Andy Squyres: And, and I actually, what I'm finding out, I haven't always known this, I've known glimpses of it, but I do believe this because I've experienced just wisps of it, that there is a profound pleasure to be had when God doesn't answer our prayers the way that he, we think that he ought to, and instead brings us into these seasons of, of.

Utter mystification where we can either see him, feel him, hear him, and, and, and yet we, [00:36:00] we still know that he's present in what seemingly feels like absence. I think that that's when the greatest supernatural work, work tends to take place.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Andy Squyres: um, that's a hard sell. That's a very hard sell, and I'm not wishing it on anybody.

And I'm praying for all of the wealth, health and, you know, I want all the things for my children and my grandchildren. I want good things for everybody. But as you and I both well know, life is a, is a strange place to live, you know.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I forget who it was. I was talking with Richard Beck or for someone else, uh, who said, well, there's something profoundly wrong with our theology if we can no longer ask God for good things. But there's also something wrong with our theology if that's. All we ask, and we're always disappointed,

Andy Squyres: That's right.

Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, and so our faith shouldn't be less than asking our good father for good things, uh, when [00:37:00] appropriate, um, and being accepted and sometimes even asking for extraordinary things. Um, and yet our faith can be big enough for our, you know, the, the cross and the tomb. Um, and that's what I really, uh, love about kind of your work is I was, we just had, uh.

Andrew Ruan and he talks about evangelism in a time of despair. Uh, and he's, he just says. You know, what does the church have to offer? It has to offer another story about sorrow. Like, let's not avoid our sorrow. Let's not whitewash our sorrow. Uh, let's not become, you know, let's not make our sorrow a badge and our identity.

Um, and so I think following Christ, you know, and, and Paul puts language in Peter and the Psalms, is that God, God has a way with our sorrow. Um. That we can be truthful about. But that, um, then, then there is hope. I, I wrote down while you were talking about like the hope and like, hope and honesty can go together.

Andy Squyres: That's right. That's

Geoff Holsclaw: They don't have to [00:38:00] be opposed. So that's what I just, that's why I was like, I gotta get, I gotta get Andy on the, on the, we just gotta talk about this stuff. 'cause I'm sure there's a lot of people who've, well, is there like, one last thing that we did that came up or that maybe you wanna encourage people into this, you know, happiness in the Lord, like one other thing that.

Has been burbling up while we've been talking. If, if not,

The Power of Vulnerability

Andy Squyres: I, I think I would say to folks that, uh, I, I had an encounter with a young man in New York City one time. I've told this story a few times, but it's an anecdote that continues to, uh, be in my mind. I think about it all the time. I, I was. I actually did the devotional at, at uh, at David Z's conference at The Mockingbird.

And, and a young couple came up to me and, and they were fans of my writing and, and, and wanted to talk to the author. It was that kind of thing. And, and the young woman is saying, oh, I just love your stuff so much. And I'm, and I'm of course feeling [00:39:00] proud and affirmed in my work. And then. The, the man is standing there silently, and then he looks at me and he goes, he goes, um, you know, Mr.

Squyres, I, uh, I really do like what you do. He goes, I. But a lot of times when I read your stuff, frankly, I'm embarrassed for you. And then I was, I was laughing, but I was shocked. And, um, I was like, well, well tell me more. He goes, well, well, first of all, your life is very, um, your life has been tough and your life, you, you, you share a lot of what I would conCyder. Things that were, would be worth being ashamed of. And gosh, there must be something wrong with me.

'cause I, I never quite do that math in my writing. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just trying to tell good stories. That's all I'm trying to do.

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah.

Andy Squyres: Uh, but it, it, it shocked me. And what it revealed to me was that [00:40:00] I think for most people, the thought of saying. Things out loud. The, the things that are going on in their inner world, saying those things out loud, um, is one of the scariest things that a person can do.

It's, it, it, it, it's, it's, uh, it's actually, I conCyder it, uh, an obstacle. To your eventual healing is that, that, um, if you're unwilling to tell the truth about your life, it doesn't have to be the gory, deepest, darkest pages out of your journal. I'm not talking about, you know, word vomiting among untrusted people.

But, but if, if you can get to that place where you. kind of set aCyde, um, any fears of maybe being unfaithful to the Lord by telling the [00:41:00] darker parts of your, your story with him. I, I, I really do that people will be surprised in, um, in, in how much quicker maybe I. The path to wholeness becomes when, when you do decide to be a little bit vulnerable in, you know, talking about your story.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right.

Andy Squyres: you know, obviously you want to do that with trusted people, not with untrustworthy people. But, um,

Geoff Holsclaw: right,

Andy Squyres: I, I would say that for me that's probably been why I've been able to. Keep my sanity, keep my faith, keep my marriage, keep my relationships with my kids, is just kind of just a, just a general baseline of, um, you know, tempered, tempered, honesty, I guess I would say it, you know?

Geoff Holsclaw: Well it [00:42:00] seems just to add to that, the hope honesty matrix. 'cause I'm a, you know, a good Baptist at heart. We could just add another H for like humility. That's because that's. Not that, you know, oh, you know, I don't wanna say you're humble, Andy. I, you know, but like,

Andy Squyres: Far be it from you.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. But, but I think, I think that sense of, of being unashamed, uh, in the good sense is a product of, of the honesty and the hope that creates a humility, which is, and.

The way, you know, this goes back actually to the devotional classics, and I forget who I got this from, right? But it's, I remember reading somewhere like humility is not, uh, thinking of yourself lowly, it's just kind of not thinking about yourself so you can be honest about your life and your experiences and the ups and downs with God.

I. I just put it out in the world and there's no shame. Um, whereas other people, you know, when you're guarding, manipulating, uh, augmenting the truth, then, you know, to be found out is a shame producing event and you're just kind of, you're just kind of putting it out there. I, and, and [00:43:00] that's what the disciples did.

That's what Paul did. And especially Peter, you know, like, why do we have all the stories? How stupid and boneheaded the disciples are. It's 'cause they told people, they were the ones passing on their stories. They're like, wait a minute. You might think that I'm the rock of the church, but let me tell you about that time when I took Jesus aCyde and he called me Satan.

Right. You know, like these are passed down because of the humility of of, of the disciples. You know, who just being honest about, uh, all these things. So the ups and downs, um, 'cause, you know, all those things could easily be, be. Written out of, we could hear or worship the apostles, and they were like, no, we're not doing that.

So well, thank you for your honesty and possible humility. Uh,

Andy Squyres: possible humility.

Geoff Holsclaw: possible humility. Um, so thank you for that in your work. Thank you for that. And, uh, who you are. Uh, we really appreciate it. 

Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects

Geoff Holsclaw: How could people, uh, I know you're, you said you're working on your, the next album. Um, can you tell us about that as well as touring as [00:44:00] well as how people can find you?

Andy Squyres: Yeah. Uh, Instagram is really the best place to connect with me. My name's spelled funny. It's S-Q-U-Y-R-E-S, not an I, it's with a y. Um, but, uh, my website andy Squyres.com for tour dates for, you know, cool weird t-shirts. Whatever, you know, you know how we pay the bills around here.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got any vinyl, if that's pressed or anything?

Andy Squyres: have no vinyl. I have never done vinyl. I know I need to jump on that. I really do. I know I've got a lot of people asking for it, so

Geoff Holsclaw: and you can find him on Spotify. Uh, no problem. For

Andy Squyres: Yep. Spotify, it's great.

Geoff Holsclaw: I think he's, uh, if you're listening to this on the East coast and, and a little bit in the Midwest, um, you know, he's got tours that kind of launch, you know, every couple months or so, and then

Andy Squyres: This may, this, yeah, this coming month in May. I'm, I'm, I'm playing, uh, 18 dates through the Northeast, so

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, [00:45:00] wow.

Andy Squyres: yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I appreciate you squeezing in, uh, this podcast, this interview, uh, before you, before you do that.

Andy Squyres: Thank you, brother Geoff. Thanks for having me on.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, maybe we'll do this again or, uh, we're I, I'm already scheming to get you involved with, uh, with Wholecloth things, so we'll see how it goes. I.

Let's do it.