Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

117 Finding Emotional Health While Helping Other: or, Healing Leadership Trauma (with Sheila and Nicholas Rowe)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw

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In this episode of the Attaching to God podcast, we explore the often overlooked emotional struggles faced by leaders. 

Our guests are Nicholas and Sheila Wise Rowe. Nicholas Rowe is the Haslin Associate Professor of Leadership at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. And Sheila Wise Row is a seasoned counselor and author (and previous podcast guest). We talk about their new book, Healing Leadership Trauma: Finding Emotional Health and Helping Others Flourish. The conversation delves into the impact of trauma, attachment theory, and the myths of self-sufficiency in leadership. They also cover systemic challenges such as racial and gender trauma and share practical embodied practices for healing.

00:00 Introduction to Leadership and Trauma

00:44 Meet the Authors: Nicholas Row and Sheila Wise Row

02:04 The Journey of Co-Writing 'Healing Leadership'

03:16 Understanding Leadership Challenges

06:54 Attachment Theory and Leadership

09:06 Insecure Attachment in Leadership

17:00 The Myth of Self-Sufficiency in Leadership

22:12 Systemic Dynamics: Gender and Racial Trauma

25:45 Historical Context of Cultural Systems

26:35 Challenges Faced by Marginalized Leaders

28:10 Gender Expectations and Leadership

30:36 Defining Leadership Trauma

32:32 Embodied Practices for Healing

37:54 Community Support and Accountability

45:37 Final Thoughts and Staying Connected



Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Geoff Holsclaw: Countless books are designed to help leaders to become better leaders, but most resources neglect the underlying emotional struggles of both emerging leaders and established leaders who often feel isolated and suffer and silence sometimes living out of their own trauma. Passing that trauma on to others.

What if we could help leaders, uh, live through and grow through their own trauma so that they can be flourishing, so that they can live flourishing lives? That's what we're talking about today. Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast produced as always by the Center for Embodied Faith, and I'm really excited to have Nicholas Row and Sheila Wise Row on with us today.

Uh, Nicholas is the Haslin Associate Professor of Leadership at Gordon Conwell [00:01:00] Theological Seminary. He also provides spiritual direction for in individuals and reconciling communities. And Sheila Wise Row has over 30 years of experience offering counseling and spiritual direction to abuse and trauma survivors, as well as to emerging and established leaders in the United States.

And she is the author of the Award-Winning Healing Racial Trauma, as well as Young, gifted and Black. But today we're talking about your new book. Thank you for being on called Healing Leadership. Trauma, finding emotional health and helping others flourish. Oh, that was such a long introduction, but thank you.

Sheila Rowe: Can I just one, one introduction. It's the Hansen School of Hanson chair. I think you

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, it's the Hanson chair. Oh, I cop, I got that wrong. Maybe I think, uh, InterVarsity doesn't have that right?

Sheila Rowe: Did they say Hanson? Or Hanson? I think you said Hanson.

Geoff Holsclaw: I probably said it wrong. I probably copied her wrong. So, so,

Sheila Rowe: So just a flag just.

Geoff Holsclaw: is it Hansen or Hans

Nick Rowe: Hanson Hanson.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, Hanson. Okay, great. Excellent, excellent. [00:02:00] Well, thank you so much, uh, for being on. Thank you for the hard work of putting this book together.

I say hard work because you co-wrote it, and I know the hard work that comes from co-writing a book with a spouse, so thank you for that. A, any stories you want to share from that experience, or should we just go straight into the, any traumas that needed to be resolved? Any leadership traumas between, uh, the two of you?

Sheila Rowe: It's funny. Well, you know what, I think the thing is always, because we're coming from different places, Nick is definitely more academic, um, as well as pastoral, but I'm more around the counseling space and the pastoral space. So, you know, it's, it's how to meld the two of those voices.

Um, I think we, we did it. Yeah, it's, um, and we were definitely informing each other's chapters and so yeah, it's came together.

Nick Rowe: and this is not the first time we've worked together. It's definitely on a book, but, uh, you know, there's a lot of intersection between our spaces of vocation and, um. So this is the, actually, this is just the outcome of a long [00:03:00] conversation we've had over a period of time. So, um, yeah, I think that's, this is what the fruit of it is and, uh, we're very excited to, to share the work and to share what we've learned with the Christian community and beyond, particularly in

Geoff Holsclaw: And beyond. Yeah. Yeah. Well, right. And so upfront, the, the book Healing Leadership Trauma isn't just about pastoral leadership, uh, ministry, it's a, it's for all, all people in all kind of leadership positions, not corporate, nonprofit, uh, as well as church and ministry. So, well, so you alluded to it, but what is somewhat of the backstory then to the desire to write this book?

Like why did you feel like, oh, we, we need to get this out to people.

Nick Rowe: Yeah. I think it comes from two different directions, I think from MySpace, particularly as, uh, being involved in, uh, senior leadership in a couple of different, uh, contexts, particularly in higher education. Uh, it is, it is interesting to note the challenges I think that leaders face, generally [00:04:00] speaking, um, particularly within higher education and, uh, particularly the challenges.

Having to deal with people and communities and history and everything else like that. Um, but just generally something about leadership and, and how it is an automatic challenge to the soul. I, I don't care what context you're in. Um, leadership is something that if your soul is not prepared for it. Uh, it can be, um, a real stressor on the person and, um, and the context, the communities that they belong to.

And so we've seen the outcomes, particularly some of the negative outcomes of, um, poor leadership, leadership crises. Um, I think some folks almost calling it a, an epidemic level of leadership crises. And we have some insights. Um, and so we thought that, uh, particularly with our. Combined specialties, we had something to say based on our personal experience, but also just in [00:05:00] general in terms of what we've seen.

Sheila Rowe: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Do you have anything to add to that, Sheila? Just from your more kind of. Uh, the therapeutic kind of, uh, perspective, like some of those challenges or the need for this book.

Sheila Rowe: Uh, you know, one thing that I think that it's, it really is identifying the realities that, um, within the Big C Church, um, and even in our local churches, there really hasn't been a way in which we have been proactive about the emotional life of the congregants, the leaders, the board, the chair, the elders, the, you know, we, we haven't.

Focused on that. In some ways, we've abdicated that role to the world, or basically if you're gonna have to find it on your own. Now there was, this is not to say that pastoral counseling didn't happen and to a certain extent, but it generally was like someone in crises, um, would do that versus, as Nick alluded to this sense of, you know, I'm a leader and I need to really identify [00:06:00] what's going on internally so that I am leading from this place of healing, of being healed.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I first came across your book, you know, I, I think I had the matrix of like church hurt and spiritual abuse. And so I thought it was, initially I thought it was like, oh, they're gonna be talking to those who have been like, traumatized by the church or traumatized by leaders, which you do talk about, but it's really a lot more about like what you said, I think Nick, about like the.

The, the leader's life is under so much pressure that there's just a lot of trauma. Uh, and I don't have the statistics in front of me, but that I know church leaders and I'm sure nonprofit leaders, especially those helping underprivileged kind of, uh, areas and people, like, they almost suffer regular PTSD, um, because of the pressures of their work.

Uh, and so, and so you're really talking about that, which I, it is like. It was so great. So I, we will jump into it even more, but early in the book you talk about, uh, attachments, you call it the [00:07:00] heart of the matter, um, and how it's so under important. And Sheila, you were just alluding to this, like the, the, the inner interior life.

Can you talk a little bit about, uh, why you bring up kind of attachment attachment theory and how that interacts with, for like, what that means for leaders?

Sheila Rowe: Yeah, there's a a lot of work around attachment that really is rooted in. Um, just our relationships so early formational attachment to our parents, caregivers, significant relationships. So it's not even just parents, but even, you know, we've been impacted in terms of attachment with our peers in schools.

Um, and all of that follows into. Uh, how we navigate through life. So a lot of work has been around relationships, like around couples work and that kind of thing. So what people are realizing more and more is just the impact of that. So you see books around attachment and relationship to God, um, and, you know, and so you know, some of what you've done and others, and just really [00:08:00] looking at that, the implication is that, uh, in many cases, so for me it was.

You know, issues with my father translating it onto God the father, and having this set of expectations that somehow God was gonna be like my father. Um, and so what we have with leaders is this early attachment then follows them into, uh, their leadership and how they engage with people. And, and it can be everything from their spouse, their children, people in the workplace, as well as people in ministry.

And you start to see that you're reacting and engaging with people based on this very primitive, a very early, um, formation. Um, and that basically affects the relationship in ways that are not helpful and often can be really, really damaging and harmful.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, that. This is why I love what you're doing with the work because yeah, a lot of the work is like an attachment is on the three things you said, like parent, child [00:09:00] or romantic attachment, and then also now spiritual attachment, but you're kind of bringing up into systems and leadership. So when someone's say in an insecure attachment, like what are different kinds of leadership, I don't know, personas or masks or coping mechanisms start to manifest.

Uh, and either of you could, uh, jump in.

Nick Rowe: Yeah,

Sheila Rowe: go ahead Nick.

Nick Rowe: sure. Um, yeah, uh, you know what, I, I am, I have the, uh, privilege of walking through this book with some students this semester. So, uh, it, it was fascinating just to learn some things from them, but also just in general, talk to them about bad leadership experiences and. Um, watching how they fall into some very classic patterns, right?

Toxic, the toxic leader, you know, the, the, the leader who's yelling and screaming at everyone, um, all the time and browbeat them. The micromanaging type of leader, [00:10:00] uh, the narcissist. Um, who makes it all about him, but if there's any mistakes, there's always somebody else's fault. Um, it's funny, and I'm, this is not, that's not an exhaustive list either, right?

I mean, I can talk about a couple of others. You know, passive aggressive type leaders and, and just plain passive leaders, right? One who. Takes years to make a decision about anything driving his followers or the team he leads driving them nuts. Um, it's interesting how you can make distinct connections between those general categories of bad types of leaders with specific types of, um, of, of, of, uh. Dysfunctional attachment, right? Or, or, or, uh, poor attachment styles. Um, and, and you can see it consistently appearing all the time. And so, um. Various types of, of, um, dysfunctional attachment, whether it's, whether it's the sort of, uh, [00:11:00] disorganized one, which can lead to distractions, whether it's the anxious one, which can show up as, as being a control freak and micromanaging all the time.

Um, or even the sort of. This sort of avoidant detachment where, you know, trying to guess who your boss's mind is at any given point in time is, is like playing lottery, right? You don't know where he's going, what he's doing, because he just doesn't trust anybody or anything. So. All to say is that you can make a definite one, two connection between a person who really has deep attachment issues and the type of boss that they end up becoming because they end up getting into leadership in some ways in order to deal with what has been missing because of their dysfunctional attachment.

It's classic, um, and we see it repeatedly. It, you know, it's one of those things where, uh, you don't see it until you start to think about it, and then you see it all over the place. Right. Um, and

Sheila Rowe: I think that with, um, let me add around in insecure attachment in that, [00:12:00] you know, there's this sense in, you know, the, a lot of attachment theories around Boldy and some of his theories around attachment. Um, but when this particular leader has this internal working system or order, um, that they're not even fully aware of, they go into situations insecure about.

Who they are, their relationship with other people. There are ways in which the insecure leader may have difficulty asking for help. Um, because in internally there's this sense of just like, you know what, I'm, I'm not really worthy of care, or, um, or to get my needs met or, and so that kind of a leader may come into a situation really unsure.

And when they really do need help, when they really, um. Do you need mentoring? They need support. They don't do it. They often don't do it, um, outta fear. Fear that they're going to be exposed or fear that they're gonna be let down. [00:13:00] And so that is, is something that can affect how that particular leader engages with, um, within, in the, with your superiors or even coworkers, um, as well as in the church.

Geoff Holsclaw: So what, what are some of the ways, um, that you, 'cause you talk about like trying to discern whether a spiritual or leadership life is coming out of. Trauma or is kind of based in grace or it's coming out of an insecure or a secure attachment, like what are some of the markers about like living in this kind of trauma or insecure kind of like leadership space?

Like what, what does that often look like? Either internally, like if you evaluate yourself or maybe like the people around you, like what do they see?

Sheila Rowe: So, you know what? I think the, for the insecure person, there also may be a sense of, um, I. Whether it's passively done or passive, aggressively done the, the insecure leader kind of grasping for attention, grasping for affirmation, [00:14:00] something to say like, yes, what you're doing is good. It is okay. And so they may make certain decisions that.

Um, they shouldn't be making. Um, and because there were these drivers, and it's not just with insecure attachment, it's with all of them. There were drivers that caused us to engage with others in ways that we're trying to meet a need. And yet, at the same time, and, and some of these attachments we're scared that, you know, we're going to be disappointed, as I said earlier, um, that they're, they're not gonna, so we, we start to look and we see this being played out.

In our work environments, um, in very concrete ways. It's, it can create a lot of, of confusion. Um, there can be ways in which an insecure leader can really fold into certain relationships that they feel like bolster them. Leaders can get into trouble in that way, um, where they're depending on their, whoever the administrator, the secretary, the.

Choir [00:15:00] director, um, you know, and, and trying to meet this, this inner hunger and need, um, that really can only be met by God and through healing, going through a healing journey.

Nick Rowe: Yeah, I, I should also say this too. I, I tell my students all the time, leadership is a relational function.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm.

Nick Rowe: Okay. It's not like we're sitting at a chess board and you're some grand master now who can manipulate all the pieces on the board to do whatever you want. Uh, those pieces on the board in real life are people who will talk back to you and have feelings of their own and may, may not act the way you want them to act.

And when that happens, then we've got problems. If the leader is thinking that people are. Things to be used to gratify whatever agenda he or she has as opposed to realizing this is a relationship that you have entered into. And relationships are dynamic, eternal things in some ways. And so, [00:16:00] uh, they have spiritual ramifications to it.

So, uh, that's why there's, the stakes are really, really high in terms of leadership because of that relational dimension.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, before we move on to, uh, some of the kind of healing or formation kind of questions, um, I, I love that you guys kind of brought in attachment 'cause it kind of, you know, I was raised with, you know, in that era of like, we all have a gods shaped hole in our lives that, you know, God wants to fill. And it's like, in some sense, like attachment actually gives like a real kind of strong basis for like, well how does that happen?

Right? We're looking for this. Um, but I think what you're, you're kind of. Leading us into is a sense that like many leaders live out of that hole and try to use their success or, um, or their influence or prestige of leadership to kind of keep, you know, that addressing that kind of attachment kind of ache in some way.

And so you just put such great language, uh, kind of around it. Uh, in one chapter you talk about. [00:17:00] Like the myth of self-sufficiency. Can you kind of talk about that as a temptation for leaders and kind of how that starts manifesting? And then I'd love to kind of move into some of the, what do we do about it?

Kind of

Sheila Rowe: You know what I find that, um, that, that piece is really interesting because I feel like it's not only just what's going on with the leader internally, but there are messages that the leader is getting out there in the, whatever sphere they're in, which is that, you know, you're a leader. You're supposed to have it all together.

You're not supposed to have any needs. Um, and so a leader can easily buy into this notion of this is what leadership is like. You go to bookstores, the airport, wherever, and it's littered with books that tell you basically that same message that if you can only follow these 10 things, then you'll be that strong leader and you're whatever ministry business will grow.

And, um, and so leaders fall into this and [00:18:00] then unfortunately. They come to the end of themselves and that they are not self-sufficient. None of us are self-sufficient, even though we are taught that we somehow are, miraculously we're not. And so then we start to see the damage that comes from that. When a leader discovers that I am not self-sufficient, I'm not strong, I'm not present.

You know what my congregants want, what my superiors want in my job, I don't have it. What do you do then? And, um, I'm going to hand it over to Nick. This is one of the chapters that he, he, um, wrote so.

Nick Rowe: Yeah, listen. Um. We're playing out the same drama as our first ancestors, Adam and Eve,

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Nick Rowe: they got it into their heads that, um, you know, God can't be really, really trusted to keep me safe, to keep me whole, to keep me well. So I, I gotta handle it by myself. I gotta make my own [00:19:00] plans and handle it by myself.

We're playing out the same drama. We got it into our heads. Um. Most probably from our places of origin, families of origin, cultures of origin, uh, that somehow we've got to get it together by ourselves. And failure is not an option. Right? Uh.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Nick Rowe: And so as Sheila said, you know, eventually we realized that's never going to work, but we don't want to give up that control because then what, right?

Who, uh, who am I as a person? Uh, you know, who, who, how, what defines me? Uh, all those big questions pop up, keep you awake in the middle of night, in the middle of the night, and the pain, right? Of realizing I'm not solving all those deep. Big gaping needs, which drove me to this thing in the first place. And so we end up using anesthetics and [00:20:00] analgesics, painkillers.

So we don't have to think about that so that we don't have to, um, be distracted by that so that we can, 'cause we gotta keep going, right? We gotta keep. You know, keeping up appearances to quote a old English comedy right? You gotta keep up. Keep up the fact of my competence, right? That I know what I'm doing because I don't wanna lose my job, I don't wanna lose face, you know, name, name.

What are the sorts of horrific consequences that we can imagine if all this eventually starts to fall apart? And that's when. You know, to varying degrees of stigma, all our addictions come running in all our bad habits, which make things even worse, right? Because all of those things always exact a payment bigger than what we can afford all the time.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nick Rowe: And eventually this will fall apart.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Nick Rowe: It will. Um, [00:21:00] and, and usually the falling apart is by our own recognition or from the outside,

Sheila Rowe: Yeah.

Nick Rowe: under God's severe mercy. This is not sustainable. It just isn't. And when we're in that place, we have a decision to make, right? Uh, do we realize that we need a savior, right? Or are we going to just continue to wallow in rock bottom it, it, it happens to everyone. Um, the question is, will we realize and reach out for our savior sooner rather than later? And what will the damage be, uh, if we put it off for too long?

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Thank you for that. When you were talking about our ancestors, Adam and Eve, I also went to Cain and Abel, right. Where, you know, 'cause you talk, uh, a bit about the temptations in the pool, you know, and God, you know, interacts with Cain and Abel and, and Cain doesn't like, uh, what happens, you know, and his heart is hardened and, and then [00:22:00] he passes on that wound.

Uh, and it kind of carries on from there. And. The reason I, I love what you're doing because even though so far we're kind of talking about the heart of the leader, but you also talk about like the systems that leaders are in. All right? So there is, uh, you talk about racial trauma, um, as well as gender trauma, which isn't something that necessarily the leaders are bringing themselves, but it's being done to them.

Could you just, uh, speak a little bit about those systemic kind of dynamics that also that leaders are, are finding themselves

Sheila Rowe: Hmm. Yeah. Wow. I think that with, when we look at gender as well as race, what we're dealing with are, you know, these are inherent traits. It's not like, um, it's something that a person created on their own. Like I. Um, and so as a, a person, a male female, you're, um, a person of color, um, and you're in these environments and these systems that are basically saying that something inherently is wrong with you.

I. In [00:23:00] that context. And so not only are you dealing with just the magnitude of the weight of having to be in that particular role, um, but there's that underlying, those underlying messages that often are around, um, imposter syndrome. Where not only is it that you feel internally like, uh, am I really, do I really have what it takes?

But you're getting messages from the outside that say that you're not. You know, you're not enough. Um, and, and you know, unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of that with these conversations around DEI and the reality that, um, and I think that one thing people fail to realize is that, um, these, whether it is a person of color or whether it's a woman, the amount of work that it entails.

Like nobody is, none of these companies are just going out on the street and picking the first woman or the first black or brown person that they can find on the street. They're not the, the people who are in these roles are people who worked [00:24:00] hard to get these roles, um, and, and these positions. And so to do a broad brush and just say, okay, this person just got in because there was a quota.

They're absolutely not true. Absolutely not true, but the person is getting these messages. They're getting it out there in social media, on the media. Um, they're getting it from all sorts of areas and that does a damage, it, it damages, um, the, the person in terms of what is my role like as a woman in this church setting, um, or as a man in this church setting or in this job setting.

Uh, and when we are not, uh, you know, the image of God is not honored or valued in individuals regardless of their gender or their race. Um, we really miss out. We miss out on the full expression of the body of Christ and that every single part, the scripture that [00:25:00] talks about the hand, the eye, the can one part say, I don't need you.

I like, we need each other, and that really is essential of the gospel. But in, even in the context of work, we need to have different voices. Um, this is a reflection of this country, but it's also a reflection of the body of Christ. And we need to get it because revelations, guess what? We're all gonna be there worshiping every tribe, tribe, tongue, nation.

Um, and it's interesting that it's specific that, um, so it isn't, you know, just a whole bunch of bright beige people worshiping God, but you know that this is essential to, um, Christianity actually. And being the body of Christ.

Nick Rowe: Yeah, I, I should add a couple of things. I mean, I, I'm a historian by training and, and this is one of the areas I look at historically. Um, and it's important to note these are systems that we are born [00:26:00] into. They were formed, you know, centuries ago. Um. And very sadly, often with some sort of blessing, bad theological blessing to indicate that there are hierarchies of people and some people are just better than others, which is not biblical.

So you're, you're, you're born into a context where there cultural definitions of reality and then there are these other types of definitions of reality that the folks controlling the systems kind of impose on everyone else. And so. Those messages that we get, um, whether we like it or not, persist and yeah, that, that the mythical person that, uh, Sheila talked about, who, who, you know, a person of color, a woman comes into it, DEI, da, da da da.

More often than not, definitely more often than not, um, said, person has to work two or three times harder to demonstrate their competency. [00:27:00] They've always had the competency and the capacity to do it, but to to, uh, to persuade everybody else we have to do, you know, you know, umpteen times the work just to show that we're supposed to be there or not. So that in and of itself, um, and that's some, you know, we, we haven't talked about the definition of leadership trauma as well, so we, we've. Clearly we talk about, uh, uh, dysfunctional attachment, but there are these other sorts of things that are a major player in our early formation that also contribute to the burdens on the soul that Adic must carry.

And a person who is a. A leader who's a person of color or, or, or women have these additional things on top of the other sorts of things that are around, that they have to process and deal with and be aware of [00:28:00] as they try to lead.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Nick Rowe: burden because of the, um, sinful cultural systems, Frank, that we were all born into.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Sheila Rowe: I wanted to add one, one thing too, just around the, so it's, you know, we're looking at gender and we've focused a lot on women and, and people of color. There's also, and, and we talk about men, um, and that there are ways in which men have been, um, they've been. Dropped into a culture which says, you know, men don't cry.

Men just need to, you know, be strong and or present that way. Um, you're not allowed to show any places of weakness. Um, you're not allowed to be vulnerability. No. And I, and empathy, absolutely not. Um, and there seems to be just increasingly, this whole backlash around. Women and women and men, but for men specifically, like what does it mean to have a, um, a, a, [00:29:00] the tender parts of you?

Because if we are all created in the image of God, and that means okay, as a man, that the parts where you see the tenderness and the compassion, the love and the just care that Jesus expressed, like where is that being allowed to? Come forth in, in how you navigate through life as a man and um, as well as the part that is, you know, Jesus clearly was strong at points and when he needed to be Absolutely.

And tender at points when he needed to be. And so where are we seeing that encouraged in men too? So, um, I don't wanna lose sight of

Nick Rowe: across the cultural template right now that there is a crisis right now because we don't know, particularly for men, because they don't know what to do with it.

Sheila Rowe: Yeah.

Nick Rowe: And you know, the statistics, right? Particularly, and we're going a little bit off topic, but it all, it all plays because the leaders burn those burdens.

So these, these abnormally high suicidal rates around 40, 50 years old for [00:30:00] men. I mean that's, that's a scream for help.

Sheila Rowe: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: right, right.

Nick Rowe: and I actually think for, for many men being in leadership sort of holds those things off. But then there's the back consequences of it for the folks that they lead, right? As, as they don't know how to operate in ways to bring about full human thriving in the places where they have influence and direction, right?

Among the communities that they, that they're overseeing.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well thank you for that. That's, that's great. I, you're right. We didn't, uh, define leadership trauma. I, I had, I'm looking on my notes and I was like, we skipped it. 'cause the conversation was so interesting. But could you, uh, Nick, why don't you, uh. Why don't you just kind of offer that definition and then we'll kind of pivot real quick.

Nick Rowe: Sure, sure. And, and Sheila can pick up all the drop spots that I dropped. But, you know, we, we think about it in terms of a timeline where a leader is in any point of his or her life. There's always three [00:31:00] sets of things, burdens that they're trying to carry. So clearly the burdens of their formation, it's a burden, the burdens of the past.

So we've touched on that a lot in terms of dysfunctional attachment or abuse or trauma, big or you know, if a person has gone through any of those things, it impairs their ability to relate well to other people straight up.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Nick Rowe: And while they. You know, while we're young and don't have our frontal lobes formed and everything else, we're trying to figure all that out.

But then we carry those ways in which we've tried to manage into our adulthood so that we're in the present right now with those dysfunctional ways of relating, but we're carrying it into the present right now, and that's creating all sorts of drama. Pressures. But then it also translates into the future too because, you know, there are future things that a, that a leader naturally is supposed to do.

And think about where is my organization headed? Where, what am I supposed to, what marks success? What does [00:32:00] that look like? Will I be able to do it? So those questions keep said, person up at night and they're all three are working at the same time. And if there is no place of ongoing healing. Via the Holy Spirit to know how to walk and be in the world as a person with these responsibilities.

It can eat up your soul straight up. It really can. So that's the, that's the, that's the what we call leadership trauma. That's, that's how it operates. I.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So. To, to pivot from that a little bit to kind of the healing journey and I, I marked this and I, I ran to, uh, our, our kitchen that's like our, our meeting space for Sid and I, between her office and my office. And I was like, oh, you're gonna love this book because there's always an embodied practice.

And so I, I'll probably throw this to Sheila. Why was this so important? And you even kind of highlight this at the, at the very beginning, why was it so important that we have embodied practices when dealing with [00:33:00] trauma?

Sheila Rowe: I, I think one thing essentially is that because we're often in, in our heads, um, in ways that, and sometimes it's, that's informative. You know, we, our feelings are not facts, but our feelings are telling us something. So we can be in our heads, but sometimes we don't. Fully get it right in terms of what's going on.

We need to also tap into where else is, where is it manifesting in our bodies? Um, and so in light of that, there are ways in which, you know, we have people who are in leadership roles and they're dealing with constant migraines. There's, you know, backaches, there's their physical manifestations of the weight and the trauma that they're carrying from all.

As Nick described, those three different spheres, they're carrying it physically. And so then the question be becomes like, how do we, um, attune to what's going on internally in our bodies, but to also pray and invite the [00:34:00] Lord to minister, to identify what that really is. Because again, if we can just stay in our heads, we can come up with any number of ideas about what we think it is.

But in prayer. And also these practices of that cause us to slow down enough to be able to listen, to listen to what's going on in our bodies, to listen in prayer. Um, we then begin to see what really is going on. And there are ways in which these embodied practices can help us to slow down a bit. Um, and there are things that, in terms of our connecting with God and whether it's.

You know, spending time in, in, in worship. Um, and, and whether it's just, it's listening to worship music, whether it's singing worship music, whether it's moving our bodies, whether it's being outside, engaging with other people. Um, there are ways in which it's outside of our heads again. So we're out there, um, and we're, we're, excuse me.[00:35:00] 

We've moved from our heads and externalized it in a way that we become much more open to receiving the help that we really need on the deepest level.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, what would be just like one or two practices, like more specifically that you would, you know, if you're just working with somebody or a community, you know, that you would just kind of start them off like as part of their healing journey.

Sheila Rowe: Yeah. Um, there are so many, um, one that,

Geoff Holsclaw: I know the book is full of a bunch. They're so good. I recommend the book, obviously.

Sheila Rowe: Well, I mean, definitely we, we do some breath prayers where, um, where it's a combination of how it is that we're breathing, because often our breathing is very, very shallow. Okay, let me pause.

Geoff Holsclaw: You're embodied. You need that drink of water. That's, that's, that's all right. I'm not gonna edit it out. We're all [00:36:00] just people here. Actually, one of my, one of my questions is, is what is the role of vulnerability in the healing journey? Right. So, you know, we can

Sheila Rowe: There we go. There we

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, we

Sheila Rowe: being real

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, we're just, that's right.

We're just people.

Sheila Rowe: Um, uh, you know, I, as I was saying in terms of, um. Breathing that we're often it's very shallow or it's very rapid and we're not aware of it. We just kind of go through life and we're either in a rush, um, or it's, it's, it's really very shallow. And so breath prayers give us an opportunity to breathe in.

And there are different variations on how to do it. A real simple one is 4, 4 4, and that is finding a scripture verse or something meaningful in which you're praying to the Lord. And it's, you know, it, it's, um. You are praying that out in four, excuse me, you're breathing in four, holding it for four, and then breathing out [00:37:00] four.

But slowly, um, in each of those four segments and often that helps us to settle. Um, and so, uh, it also causes us and, and can cause us to, to begin to listen because that's a huge part of what we also talk about and that is that God is constantly speaking to us and, and essentially when we have those moments where we slow down enough, we begin to listen and pay attention even when we're out there in our daily lives.

God is speaking. And when we're more like attuned to what's going on around us and present, we begin to hear his voice in the middle of the stresses and the strains that we're experiencing every day. Um, in our work and in our ministry. God is speaking, he's, he's accompanying us in it. And so, um, the practices that are in the book, there are different ones you've said, help us to do that better.

Nick Rowe: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well just to, to finish off, and I'll throw this to Nick is 'cause we say. Uh, my [00:38:00] wife in her work, she says, well, you didn't get to where you are by yourself and you're not gonna get outta where you are by yourself. So what would be some practices or postures that communities, whether they're organizations, churches, can take to help support their leaders themselves?

Because it's not just the leader has to make all the change, right? The system needs to be part of it. So what are some some of the things that communities can do?

Nick Rowe: Yeah, listen, um, I'm gonna take your, your suggestion of community and define it in a couple of ways because I, I think in a lot of, uh, contexts, there is a lot of cultural baggage to overcome.

Geoff Holsclaw: Sure.

Nick Rowe: Um. So, so the word of the culture of the community, the community. So if you're a pastor, say, and it's not just a passive, I mean, even if you are, if you are working in some sort of secular organization, you and you start to be a person of authority in that place, you're coming into a place that has a culture before you show up. And some aspects of that culture can be [00:39:00] particularly unhealthy. So one of the things that one has to start to think about is, okay, Lord, how do I start to model? A different way of being to the community that I'm serving. Um, so that the, the, the culture of healing, the culture of healthy living, the culture of vulnerability and all those things start to work.

And so,

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Nick Rowe: um, I think it's essential for all, for any leader to have a. Place outside of the whole setup where the leader can be vulnerable. Uh, I'm just gonna borrow, you know, Genesis two, Adam and Eve naked and without shame.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Rowe: I, you know, I, and I've told this to my class, and I tell this to a lot of people all the time.

I've, I've had the deep, deep blessing of having three men whom I've walked with [00:40:00] in relationship now for close to 30 years. They know everything about me. have my permission. I've given them explicit permission at any time, um, because they know me and they know my story, and they also know my vulnerabilities and my temptations and everything else to call me out when they see those things popping up that I'm not addressing.

It's like, what's going on? We see you're doing X, Y, and Z. What's going on? What's doing that? Um. I think the reason why it's a blessing is because I can, I'm safe in those places, but I can be honest and I will get honest feedback. They'll say the hard things, but I can receive the hard things because they've been through me in the, in the fire and they have not kicked me to the curb or used stuff against me.

Right. Um, and so there, there has to be some sort of places like that. And I know it's not. Easy to generate those things, but it, it's, it's something that I think is critical as an outside space so [00:41:00] that when you're working in the community, to which. You know, I'm assigned when one is assigned as a leader.

Um, we can start to, to model those things. I think of other practices now, like, uh, a rule of life. Um, organizing my life intentionally around the places of vulnerability that I know the Lord wants to heal. Um, boundary making. Um. Particularly if I tend to be a person that has a hard time saying no, which can be my issue.

So making boundaries, knowing that your community may be upset at you, but you're modeling to them. This is a health way of operating so that I can respect the fact that I'm made with limits.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Nick Rowe: So, I mean, these are, these are, and I'm, I'm obviously just dipping my toe into a very deep pool, but I, I think one of, I think the thing that's important in terms of [00:42:00] encouraging the community that you're serving to do that is to start to model culture change so that everybody is working together to make sure everybody is healthy, right?

I have to be a model in order to do that.

Sheila Rowe: Yeah, I, I wanted to add something. I think that the other piece is that, um, I, when Nick is talking about going outside and getting that support, I think two things have to happen simultaneously. And one is that within the context of the ministry or the church, that there are structures and, um, in place to really address, um.

What's going on with the leader, with the pastor or whoever, because we've seen too many cases where, um, there's been a lot of enabling that has happened in the context of, um, churches and then we see these major falls and, you know, things are blow up on media and, you know, and then when you look at [00:43:00] the, um, the, the support systems that were around there, the elder board, the what, whoever, um, the assistant pastor people who saw things, but quite.

Weren't quite sure, I'm not quite sure how to handle it, that there, there has to be a way in which, um, churches, if there something does surface that they're bringing in other people, they're bringing in others to help to address that. Um, because often what happens is that people kind of write things off like, well, that can't be, or the, the person in question comes up with some.

Line of whatever that they're, they're okay now or, um, but what is the structures that churches are going to, um, develop within their church body that really supports and encourages healing and vulnerability and transparency? Confession, which has totally been lost in the [00:44:00] Protestant church. Um. But we've gotta really examine like how, how are we setting up spaces where at the end of the day, someone can have a really, what seems to be this powerful call of God on their lives.

And we've seen this and yet they're acting out in such egregious ways and um, and we don't know what to do about it and they don't even know. Um, but at a certain point, you know what, the call does not supersede. Um, you know, the, the, the fact that there's harm being, that's happening. And so for some people sitting out not just for two weeks or a year, but for a significant period of time, so that real deep healing can happen.

And for some folk who have a particular vulnerability where it's just repeatedly and it's abusive and involves children or, you know, abusing women like. That's it. This is putting someone like who's really, and this is what we've see in a lot of putting [00:45:00] people back into the same environment with the same people, and they have that vulnerability is a setup.

And so, um, internally as a church, we've gotta get serious about these conversations about what is actually needed. To support pastors in terms of getting their healing, you know, in, uh, whatever that is. And also if, if it's that a person really shouldn't be in ministry, they could have a great call, but it's not, it's not safe for other people.

And so what are we going to do about that? What are we gonna have in place, um, around that?

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. And that's a whole nother very important topic about church accountability and, uh. well we've just kind of hit the, the tip of the iceberg as always on something like this. It is such a great book. Thank you again. That's, uh, I'll just say it again. It's the Healing Leadership Trauma, finding emotional health and helping others flourish.

There's all sorts of good stuff at the end that we didn't [00:46:00] even cover, which is finding purpose again, the necessity of rest, the path of forgiveness and restoring relationships. There's so much good stuff, but thank you so much. Is there any one last thought that you guys just want to be sure, uh, to kind of leave us with?

Nick Rowe: Yeah.

Sheila Rowe: yeah, but I think we both do,

Nick Rowe: Go ahead.

Sheila Rowe: but I'll just very close and then you can, you can you, yeah. Uh, you know what, I think that a real important thing for leaders, that whole sense of like, lead, you're a leader and you're all on your own. Just like God loves you so much. He really does. You know, um, Nick alluded to the whole thing of severe mercy, that even in that, you know, things coming out, it's not.

God is like, I wanna harm you, or, but it's, God really wants redemption. He wants healing. He loves us so much that he wants to restore and he wants to heal us. And if that means that he, he heals and restores us and strengthens us to go back into ministry, or he's like, no, you, you need to pivot

Geoff Holsclaw: [00:47:00] Mm-hmm.

Sheila Rowe: this is like, no, like, and all of that.

It is from a place of love that he loves us and he loves you.

Nick Rowe: Yeah. Listen. Um, one of the things that I've really enjoyed about working on. This book with Sheila, but just even as I am now working with students and teaching, it's the gospel man. It is so much the gospel from top to bottom. And I have had such a deep joy, uh, over the past couple of months of working with students surround as I'm working through this with them, but also just realizing.

This is, this is, you know, we often talk about making sure the main thing is the main thing. This is the main thing. And particularly in this Easter season. It is, it is, uh, yeah. I'm, I'm just really, I. Glad and joyful for the language, again, to talk about the gospel in a fresh way. Um, in this context, of course, but it's the fundamental thing.

We, you know, we were a hot mess. We tried to [00:48:00] figure it out, didn't know what we were doing. Things were increasingly worse until we basically gave up and said, God help us. And he did. He showed up. God will always show up to that. Um, and, and so. Yeah, that's a, it's, it's a reason to be grateful and to rejoice in the midst of this, and it's, it's a real joy to be able to do this work.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, that's great. Well, thank you for that. Final word, how can people stay connected or follow some of your work? I.

Sheila Rowe: Um, well we are on social media. I'm at Sheila Wise Row, um, Facebook also at S Wise Row, um, and Instagram. I'm not on Twitter or X uh, nope. Um, and I just started Sub Stack, I think it's Sub Stack. Um, so that's, that's really how, and website is sheila wise row.com.

Nick Rowe: Yeah, I'm on Instagram at uh, [00:49:00] G-R-I-O-T-R-O-W-E. You can also find me on Facebook, um, and I'll pop up on, on on uh, Twitter from time to time. There's gotta be somebody speaking some health into there. Um. And I do, uh, again, I'm at the seminary, so you can find my pages there. But, uh, I also have my own personal page at uh nicholas row phd.com.

That's where I couldn't be found as well.

Geoff Holsclaw: Excellent. Well, we'll put all those in the show notes. Uh, appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for your time and thank you for putting this book together.

Nick Rowe: All right. Thank you very much for having us. It's been a joy to be here.

Sheila Rowe: absolutely.

Nick Rowe: Keep well.

Sheila Rowe: Take care.