Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

116 Neurodiversity and Attachment: Bridging the Gap (with Barbara Grant)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw

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Does neurodiversity impact relational attachments? What does secure and insecure attachment look like for those who aren’t neurotypical?

In this episode of the Attachment to God podcast, hosts Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw are joined by Barbara Grant, a specialist in autism and neurodiverse couples coaching. They talk about how neurodiversity impacts relational attachments and spiritual practices, particularly in the context of secure and insecure attachment. 

Barbara Grant, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy, a Certified Autism Specialist (IBCCES) and a certified Neurodiverse Couples Coach (AANE). She edited and is one of the authors of Uniquely Us: Gracefully Navigating the Maze of Neurodiverse Marriages and is the co-host of The Neurodiverse Couple's Coaches podcast. 

Dive deeper in our new book, Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection, and learn about our trainings and other resources at embodiedfaith.life.

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Introduction to Neurodiversity and Attachment

 

Geoff Holsclaw: Does Neurodiversity impact our relational attachments? What does secure and insecure attachment look like for those who are not neurotypical? And how do some of these practices change? Uh, in the midst of all this as we're trying to seek se more secure attachment with God and with others? That's what we are talking about today.

This is the Attachment to God podcast. We are Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw. 

Meet Barbara Grant: Expert in Neurodiverse Relationships

Geoff Holsclaw: Exploring a neuroscience informed spiritual formation, and as always, we're produced by embodied Faith, and we are so delighted that today we have Barbara Grant on with us. She holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy, as well as being certified in autism as an autism specialist.

And CER [00:01:00] certified as a Neurodiverse couples coach. She is edited and is one of the authors of uniquely us gracefully navigating the maze of a neurodiverse of Neurodiverse marriages, and is the co-host of the Neurodiverse Couples Coaches Podcast. Barbara, thank you so much for being on with us today.

Barbara Grant: Oh, I'm so grateful here to be here with you guys, uh, Geoff and Cyd, and ever since I met you in, um, the Attachment to God cohort that I did with you last year. I have been utilizing, as, you know, some of your materials and really, you know, so, um, much seeing the importance of the issue of attachment, not just for human relationships, but of course for understanding our identity in Christ and being attached to God.

So I'm just so happy to be here.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, we're glad to have you here too, because I know it's a common question that comes up in my work that I do one-on-one and also in the. Cohorts that we do is how, how do I navigate my [00:02:00] life with God when some of the traditional practices don't seem to work for me because of my neurodivergence?

So I'm just really excited to have this conversation with you today as well. So.

Geoff Holsclaw: um, just last week we're running another iteration of that same cohort that you were, uh, with us, I think about a year ago, the attaching to Guide cohort, which then is the basis of our landscape landscapes of the Soul book. Um, that's coming out. Down the road, but they asked this question, I was like, uh, I'll have to ask Barbara, uh, next week 'cause she's gonna be on, uh, about how neurodivergence like affects some of these things.

So, so could you tell us a little bit then, like when you were learning some of this attachment stuff, like what stood out to you and then what have you been trying to kind of work into your work? And you can tell us about your specific work

Understanding Neurodivergence

Cyd Holsclaw: Well, even before that, and I do wanna do that, but even before that, I'm wondering for those, for people who maybe don't know what we mean when we say neurodivergence, can you just start there and then answer your next question?

Barbara Grant: [00:03:00] Absolutely. Yeah. This is a, um, an evolutionary part of the whole diagnostic manual. Um, which, you know, having been published in 2013 is now quite out of date in terms of how Neurodivergence presents. Um, so. If you are high functioning autism, it used to be called Asperger's, now you're level one autism, or you could be level two or three. Um, if you are developmentally, neurologically. Affected by some of the wiring God has given you, the God-given wiring. You may be dyslexic, you may have an A DHD or what used to be called an attention deficit, a DD brain. Now that's all combined. Um, the Tourette syndrome. Um, there's all kinds of developmental learning challenges that present, and this is all about how your brain is wired and how your brain functions and how your brain processes thinking and stores. Information and re retrieve [00:04:00] information. So the first thing I wanna say is that, um, if you are in any of those categories, or you suspect you are, you may be neurodivergent and it's, it's, you know, it's not like you've got a disorder. I really hate that. It's a difference. You have a neurological. Difference in how God made you and God doesn't make mistakes.

There's nothing wrong with you. 

Challenges and Strengths of Neurodivergent Individuals

Barbara Grant: It's not a disease or anything, I think to be ashamed of because frankly, some of the most successful people throughout history have been neurodivergent. Um, it often presents with incredible gifting and high intellect and focus, laser focus, ability to, to think. So, you know, if you're neurodivergent, that could be like a really cool thing.

And I think with the younger generation these days, it is like, I'm neurodivergent, you know, not so much with the older people who didn't get diagnosed. So many people, um, are finding out that they are high functioning [00:05:00] autism or, you know, um, A DHD because their kids are going to school. And, um, you know, in school their children are presenting with some different challenges.

And when they have that diagnose, they go like, so where does this come from? And, uh, at least with autism, it's, you know, 81% genetic. So, um, oftentimes, and I hear this story, this happened to me. You know, my, my son who's now 34, uh, high functioning autism, A DHD, we didn't have the A DHD figured out till he was in his late twenties. But when he was 19, I finally said, okay, I think, I think we need to have you diagnosed, which is when we realized that his dad was also neurodivergent. I'm like. Oh my goodness. This explains so like of why, you know, there's two brains thinking on two different wavelengths and there's not an easy read.

So, um, People that are not neurodivergent, we call that neurotypical, not because it's normal, but if you think about the [00:06:00] statistical norm, you know that curve right? There tend to be more people in the middle of that curve than those that are not neurotypical. 

Impact of Neurodivergence on Relationships

Barbara Grant: So that's what, and if you are a neurotypical person in relationship with a neurodivergent person, then you have a neurodiverse. Relationship. So those are the technical terms that, um, are, are accurate at, at least right now in

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: work we we're working in.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, that's helpful. I think even just to realize that when we say neurodivergent, we're not talking about only one way that P, that there's a neurodivergence, but there's a lot of differences even just within that name of neurodivergence. And so I think, yeah, and there's different challenges and different opportunities and different strengths with each of those differences.

Barbara Grant: And, and in my experience, they are often co-present, co-occurring. So I [00:07:00] tell people that, um, you know, like there, there are Venn diagrams where you can see how. uh, I mean, uh, autism might present how A DHD might present and how OCD obsessive compulsive disorder might present. And there are shared pluses and minus traits, you know, um, uh, assets and, and some developmental challenges.

Um, so I, I like to think of this as a, uh, you know, the x, Y, Z access that's in space. Right. It's not a linear this way or that way. It's, it's an X, Y, Z, and, and it's a constellation of presenting traits that each individual has that is unique like a snowflake, right? But it's unique to them. So, um, and, and these things are also very, very influenced by a family of origin and by attachment and life trauma. So there are many mitigating factors, um, and people that [00:08:00] are neurodivergent might be doing great until huge stress happens. Or in women, they get to be menopausal and they're like, I, you know, it's not just hormones. There's more happening here and might be a DHD functionality, things like that.

Cyd Holsclaw: Okay. Yeah, that's really helpful just to get a little bit more detail around that. So then, since you're talking about, you know, the ways that a lot of these things are shaped throughout, you know, early attachment through family of origin, all those kinds of things, I'm wondering how you heard. Um, or saw a connection between the way we talked about survival strategies and how we learned to survive in particular landscapes, depending on our, yeah, go ahead.

Barbara Grant: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, it seems that people who are neurodiverse or neurodivergent be more what we would call left brain thinking, and they, at a young age even they, they observe this in babies as old as three months old, [00:09:00] that there is not the same kind of eye contact or bonding behaviors. A neurotypical person a baby might have with its mother or caregivers and, and this was my son, he would look at you in the eye until he saw the fan turning or a wheel turning or something mechanical.

And he is like, I wanna look at that. And even in development, um, of. When, when a baby is bonded first with their caregivers and caring most about the feedback they're getting from their caregivers relationally and behaviorally, are picking up all, they're learning the language of socio behavioral. Syntax, you know, uh, the body language, the facial expressions, the emotional connections, the voice tone, all of that. When they're more interested in the patterns, in the systems, in the analytics, the, you know, um, other kinds of, uh, things that they look at in environmentally [00:10:00] or are intrigued by, then they may have a sense of. The mother being there, but they're not saying, mommy, look at my truck with me. They're just like, yeah, I don't know where mom is, but I'm with the truck. and even, um, little children when they are, uh, three years old, it's not, um, unified play. It's for parallel play, but it continues to be parallel play for a long time if you're especially autistic.

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Barbara Grant: A DHD doesn't have. In the same way that relational deficit, but it does have, um, a hyper, um, sensitivity. Hypersensitivities are very present in neurodivergent brains. And that could mean a lot of things. It could mean too much light, too much sound, too much touchy feely, um, too much information, know, while at the same time an A DHD brain might be a dopamine seeking, what about this?

And what about that and what about that? And [00:11:00] they're kind of. High on getting it all in, but not processing it well or connecting well or prioritizing it well. And executive function can be a big deficit in A DHD as well as autism. So it just, it, it just throws wrenches into human bonding

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: and, um, if you don't know what's going on and, and kids who are neurodivergent. They're just getting by. They're doing their best to figure it out and behave according to, you know, they're told sometimes, don't do that. Why did you say that that wasn't appropriate? and they're like, oh my gosh, I, I better not do that again. And they'll write a rule in their head because they're very systems thinking and rules based, they see things sometimes a little black and white.

Especially autistic kids, so they're not getting the vibe of what's going on in the room and picking up all the socio behavioral signals and syntax. They're like, what's my rule number, 7,900 for that? [00:12:00] And they're, they've got a playbook that they add to or, or detract from, and they don't know that others aren't doing that,

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: right?

So they think everybody's got a playbook. And then it's all about what's in the playbook and what's right and what's wrong, and what's within. You know, their sense of reasoning and um, so they're more transactional. They're like, if I do this, you'll do that. And so transaction versus relational context is, um, more where they're coming from.

They, they'll see the trees very clearly, but they don't see the, the forest. They're, they, they lack central cohesion, a sense of central cohesion and context, whereas a neurotypical kid has learned at an early age to read the room, read the, the context, and, and knows kind of what the tribe vibe is. Um, and. Do does that, so does this make sense what I'm

Cyd Holsclaw: Oh, it makes a lot of sense. And you know, even as you've talked, I keep [00:13:00] hearing a couple things that I know Geoff is, Geoff and I are kind of smiling at each other as you're talking. 'cause I think there are things that we're hearing that go, oh, we can identify with some of that in our family. And, you know, not, not necessarily all of the things that you're talking about, but there have been a couple glimmers where I go.

That sound, that sounds familiar. Um. But I think also it makes so much sense then why when you say, you know what, what you're talking about, then it would make sense. Well, I'm I, I'll just ask you, does it make sense that when a rule is broken by someone who's important to the Nidi, neurodivergent person, that that would really be a disruption of you're not keeping the rules, you're breaking the transaction, which then I imagine would affect the attachment as well.

Barbara Grant: Yes, very much so. And, and there's a, there's also a part of this is a tendency to be more dysregulated. You know, that their, um, parabolic system, their flight freeze spawn be much more [00:14:00] easily triggered they don't even have some of them, a sense of mind body connection. self-soothing because they didn't do a lot of maybe soothing behaviors with mom that really worked for them.

They were more interested in, like my son, he could be with Legos for three hours at age two and a half. And I was like, look at that. That's interesting. You know? But he was like chilling out. He was

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: That was his. My daughter had to be talk, talking to somebody every 15 minutes or else she was going nuts.

She was aer. So, um, so. Being a little more dysregulated can really interfere with everyone's ability, uh, to be in learning, growing curiosity and, um, very appropriate to all of this. And the book talks that you mentioned, the uniquely asked book that I edited, and Dr. Holmes, Stephanie Holmes, and her husband Dan, captain, they, she does a lot of work, um, talking [00:15:00] about, uh, uh. The, the enemy mode, um, that Dr. Jim Wilder

Cyd Holsclaw: Sure.

Barbara Grant: talked about. I know you've had him and you work closely with him and know his work. So, um, yeah. Neurodiverse, uh, neurodivergent people can flip into enemy mode, um, sometimes more quickly than they even realize. And then,

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: yep.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. The, the language that we use, um, to talk about that is that, you know, from our, is the connect and protect priority, right? That our nervous system either wants to connect with others or protect ourselves. And so that dysregulation is when we've said, I need to protect myself. I don't really care about being connected to you right now.

I just need to take care of me. Yeah. Yeah. So, Geoff, what was your original question that you asked Barbara at the very beginning and have we gotten there? Okay. Yeah. 

Strategies for Neurodivergent Couples

Cyd Holsclaw: I'd love to know Barbara more about how you work with people specifically around attachment in ways that [00:16:00] are accessible for Neurodivergent folks.

Barbara Grant: All right. Well, um, this is a, a nut I continue to try to crack and I rely heavily on, um, on the Holy Spirit to help me divine and help, you know, get in. Where

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: the crack is to get in somebody's door. Um, what I have found is that, um. There as much structure as can be provided is helpful. So for instance, if I work with a couple that need that, they're going to learn to speak to one another.

We use active listening, which is a structured listen mirror, speak mirror, listen mirror, speak mirror. Kind of a, a exercise. But I also give them very structured, um. Things to talk about. So for instance, when we learn problem solving, I've, I've figured out that a problem can be broken down, I think into four logistical, practical components.

One is, how do I see the [00:17:00] problem? Number two, what are my feelings or values about the problem? Number three, what are my ideas for how to solve this problem? And number four would be, what is my timeframe or budget? For solving this. And so to solve a problem, uh, one party will bring their problem and they present each item and they, the partner has to mirror each time they can't go on for, you know, five minutes talking. They can do four to five sentences, stop. Then the other gets to mirror. Did I get that power? Okay. Give, give more information. And first of all, the neuro, if I'm working with a neurodivergent husband, he's like, they love this. They're like, you mean she can't talk at me for 10 minutes? I'm like, no. Like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be heard and I'm gonna understand what she's saying.

I'm saying yes. And the, the wives love it because oftentimes they, their feelings don't get validated. They don't even get heard [00:18:00] and they're told they're wrong, or no, I don't feel nobody should feel that way. So they get to say how they feel. So when each party gets to put all four of their pieces on the table, I, I tell them all the puzzle pieces are now turned up of how to solve this problem. And when they understand and can see it and it's clear and nobody's dysregulated, they actually can really solve some problems.

Cyd Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Grant: So this doesn't cover all of the. Difficulties and dynamics in their marriage that frankly sometimes can't be accessed by talking about it. They

Cyd Holsclaw: Sure.

Barbara Grant: structure. They need time to, even say, don't be talking to each other.

Sometimes write things down if you can't distill your thinking into clear words you can either share in writing or say to the person. You know, because, we'll, we'll do metaphoric references or nuances and some people that are neurodivergent have [00:19:00] very literal take. They're trying to make out of what you're saying.

And some of us neurotypicals are referencing all kinds of things and flipping back and forth and time sequence and you know, and they just shut down.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, what I'm hearing uh, kind of what we teach all the time about, uh, attachment strategies is that you're not locked in it, it's not your destiny. And certainly there are certain, um. Extreme, you know, extreme, uh, forms of autism that aren't, that there's very little growth that can happen, like, so I understand, you know? Um. But what I'm hearing from you is that like, you know, couples can work on things and there can be growth, there can be a deeper understanding. Um, and, and then a movement, like we talk about how, you know, God meets us in our, uh, insecure attachment, but then is helping us move towards secure attachment.

What I'm hearing from what you're saying in this mirroring, [00:20:00] kind of listen, active listening for one another. as you were describing, I was using the two kind of, um, pieces that we, we talk about in attachment quite a bit, which is, well you have like the social emotional processing and then the logical linguistic, you know, you could talk right, left brain, that practice that you were mentioning, it really is trying to build competencies in both.

I. So, um, you know, especially for the autism spectrum, uh, for certain people, like the logical linguistic pattern seeking rule-based is very strong, Uh, and so you can meet them there by, you know, organizing your thoughts in a. You know, some sort of way, but then what I'm hearing is you're, you're helping them move into their partner spouses kind of world, which is usually that emotion language, which is, you know, it's that, that feeling that I was hurt or I felt misunderstood, or, uh, you know, something like that.

So they're, they're moving into that social emotional bit by bit. And then it's probably the reverses happening for the other spouses while they have the social [00:21:00] emotional connections, their longings that maybe aren't being met but met, but they're missing kind of like the. The framework to help it get communicated.

So you're helping supply that too, is that right? Or was I just projecting my grid on there?

Barbara Grant: No, exactly right. Um, and you know, something else that's very subtle, very hidden oftentimes is a, a condition called alexathymia. And Alexathymia is the inability to know. What you're feeling. You have feelings, but you, you just can't figure out what it is you're feeling. Right? You're maybe distressed, but you don't know, am I sad, am I angry? And the inability also to recognize emotional experience of others. So this informs a lot of human interaction, and especially in the attachment world, if there's a an underdeveloped sense of emotional. You know, sensibility, this is, it's sort of like being colorblind in a spectrum [00:22:00] color world, right?

Where you can see some shades of gray, but you are not getting the Roy g biv of the rainbow. And that does limit in in a lot of ways. And if you don't know someone you're in relationship with, has Tia. You make all kinds of assumptions. You're talking about reds and turquoises and subtle magentas, and

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

Barbara Grant: uh, just completely clueless. So you have to understand that. Everybody is developmentally o uh, uh, they are able to grow relationally and emotionally, but where they're at and taking them where they're at and encouraging them where they're at, like you were saying, God meets us. Where we're at is the, the trick. And so many couples that I work with and even individuals have just been battered and shattered from the world, not coming up alongCyde of them and getting. And validating where they're at and making them feel [00:23:00] okay. You know, they're like, why can't you do that? You're never right. You're always weird. What's the matter with you? And, and people have these great defensive, you know, rejection sensitive dysphoria. They're, they're just like super sensitive. They get very, uh, protective, um, even at a hint of maybe them not being okay with something.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: So it's very complex. Um, but you know. I think what you're, you guys offer is the ability to begin to conCyder attachment. That alone I think is a very valuable thing. to stop and look at that or, or experience it or, you know, try to discern where, how do I attach, what is my language of attachment?

Where am I at with the landscape of attachment that you guys describe? um, know. Whether Emmanuel journaling works for Neurodiverse people or not. I, you know, some of them, they, [00:24:00] I've assigned it to people they are like, yeah, that's not gonna work for me, because can't have the mind of God speaking to them. You know, it's not. It's not like, well, I can quote you some scripture. You know, and they know maybe every, every scripture address in the Bible, but it's, you know, it's hard for them to imagine or get into some how God might think or feel about them if that's not how they're coming at life.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, so I'm curious. You know that you teach that problem solving strategy to married couples. 

Spirituality and Neurodivergence

Cyd Holsclaw: How might that be mapped onto a relationship with God? Like, I'm just curious.

Barbara Grant: Well, that is actually, um, uh, it's a great question because as I talk to people who are neurodivergent about God, They do have [00:25:00] such great logic, um, high intellect, some of them, they're able to parse out and reason and rationalize a lot. Uh, and we use scripture where, you know, Paul here it.

He, I just love Paul for these reasons he just sort of litigates. Proof that God loves you. You know, what does that mean to you? Can you trust that? Can you lean into it? And, um. It's not so much about the rules as it is about the relationship

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: Jesus demonstrates time and time again. Yeah, the rules.

Yeah. No, it's about love. It's about shalom, it's about forgiveness, it's about inclusion. Um, you know, those things versus up, you know, you are, you touched that thing and now you're out. Right? Um, so.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. So with, uh, you know, 'cause a lot of what we talk about with attachment is that, you know, and [00:26:00] you, you need both the logical linear tools and the more effective tools, the sort of emotional and social tools. So how, how would you, like, for someone who, and I don't expect to, if you don't have the answer, that's fine, but like, how would you encourage someone who says, I can't imagine the mind of God, or like, even what you just said with inclusion and forgiveness.

And love and relationship with someone who's like, yeah, those aren't even really categories for me. So do you have any sense of how people could take baby steps towards starting to allow God to sort of have that kind of role and that kind of relational nature in their connection?

Barbara Grant: Yeah. Um, I think the baby steps are about getting to know who you're talking with. This is

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Barbara Grant: not a oh one size fits all, you

Cyd Holsclaw: Right.

Barbara Grant: arena at all. And, um, I. Finding out what they think about God, who they [00:27:00] think they are in Christ. Is it, is it a formal relationship where they go to church, they serve, they, they check all their boxes, you know, they're doing their homework.

They're, uh, I mean there are a lot of pastors who are leading churches that are neurodivergent Um. That doesn't mean they're not effective on some level. Right. And it's also where we put weight because I, I personally understand that God knows the heart and mind of everyone he's created and what I would call a, a attachment or healthy attachment is not necessarily what somebody else feels healthy

Cyd Holsclaw: Right.

Barbara Grant: And um, so this is seen in when you have maybe two narrative urgent people in relationship with one another. Okay. And they both like to video game. They both like to do their own separate thing. They, they like some of the, um, the balance and rhythm of the distance. They're able to have the autonomy. [00:28:00] Um, the, these couples tend to have no children and cats instead of dogs.

So that's my observation, but that's a very general rule. I'm kind of saying that tongue in cheek here, but they, they get along great. Because neither of them are missing some of the things that a, maybe a more neurotypical person would be missing in the relational connection. And I think God is relating to neurodivergent people just fine in many cases.

Cyd Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Grant: Again, it's different from how I would relate,

Cyd Holsclaw: Sure.

Barbara Grant: what I look for in helping a couple is respect and validation and willingness to suspend their disbelief about each other, the value of each other's approach, approach. Don't discount each other because it's not what you're doing or how you're doing it or

Geoff Holsclaw: Right.

Barbara Grant: experiencing. validate it, respect it. Let God do the work. It's, this is the realm of the [00:29:00] Holy Spirit, right? And, and. If it has a positive lean and people feel encouraged, I think that's what Jesus calls us to do in loving others. You know, not to throw the flag on, oh, you this rule, you're breaking this rule, or, oh, you're not, you know, able to hug and worship and emote like, you know, I am. No, they're, they're, that's how God made them

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: all made for his purposes, not for each other in the end. Right. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I, yeah, thank you so much for that. 

The Role of Joyful Connection

Geoff Holsclaw: we tell people, um, you know, as part of attaching to God is like being able to grow your capacity for joyful connection. And so I was wondering if you could reflect on that a little bit. What are, 'cause I think my hunch would be is that I. connection would look and function differently, especially for people on the autism spectrum [00:30:00] and that we might miss or and or misunderstand what joyful connection is or bids for joyful connection. Does that make sense? Could you kind of maybe fill that out? Because I think that might be, because I know some people get frustrated when we say that like, oh, we need to build more joyful connection. People are like, ah. And then it's just like, I'm not doing, I'll just read the Bible more, or I'll get a systematic theology textbook, and that's my joyful connection.

Barbara Grant: and again, you know, what we're talking about I think is the, the, the cutting edge of trying to understand neurodiversity in the spiritual realm really. And that's why I love and found your podcast and never met you guys. 'cause I, I think you're onto a lot here. So. I think that, you know, in observing what makes a neurodivergent people light up, what makes them happy, feel safe and secure is certain sense of structure. Um, a rhythm. An an, an agency that they have to make choices to not feel pushed or pulled or demeaned, or, or [00:31:00] that they need to be this square peg in a round hole. And that they have the freedom in Christ to be that way. If they're not hurting others, if they're not abusing others, if they're not, you know, sitting in, in ways that are over overtly relationally destructive, that's how they are. they might just get more out of video gaming all night long with five other people, you know, and, and that's, that lights 'em up. okay, that's a connection, that's a relational trans, I don't know. It, it's different than lo sitting and longingly looking into each other's eyes and reciting poetry or, you know, building memory or subtle sentimentality.

It's different. I, I

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Barbara Grant: be in a position to say that's not joyful for them. That's not healthy for them. And, and whatever breeds [00:32:00] health and a sense of wellbeing, I think our bodies are made to show goodness and health. Right.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: So does that make sense what I'm saying?

Cyd Holsclaw: it makes sense and I appreciate the way that you said, as long as it's not being relationally destructive, right. In that, because there's a lot of things that any of us could do that make us have a sense of wellbeing, but is also relationally destructive. And so I appreciate that you put that at the beginning, that as long as it's not relationally destructive, that may be.

You know, wonderful. And it might be, it might increase their feelings of connection. So then I'm playing with that idea and I'm thinking that sounds a little bit more like parallel play or like two people sharing an activity rather than sharing, looking at each other or being grit. Attention is, is shared somewhere else.

And so I'm thinking about. I'm just trying to noodle right now of thinking like what does that look like in spiritual life then of like, are there [00:33:00] ways of imagining shared attention with God on something that brings me a sense of wellbeing, right? So even something along the lines of. What would it be like for a neurodivergent to conCyder or to even sort of use those, those really good tools logically to say, God cares just as much about this thing that I'm interested in as I do.

And God takes an interest in me as I take an interest in this and we, this is something we can enjoy together. And I wonder if that's a kind of joyful connection that maybe sounds. Less connected to a neurotypical person, but for a neurodivergent person that's like, oh yeah, that's the sweet spot.

Barbara Grant: Yeah. Well, you know, this is very well portrayed by the way, in the television series of chosen

Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

Barbara Grant: because Matthew is a neurodiverse person. He's a neurodivergent person, possibly a high functioning autism,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, that's always how I, uh, [00:34:00] interpreted his

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Barbara Grant: they do a great job rendering that. I mean, there's a lot of shows that get it off, but. Matthew is, well, well, well rendered as a neurodivergent.

Geoff Holsclaw: And especially how uh, Peter gets frustrated with Matthew for always writing things down and he is always very precise.

Barbara Grant: that about him. He's like, Matthew, sermon

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah.

Barbara Grant: Write it down. And Matthew's getting every word right. Praise God. Right.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right. I.

Barbara Grant: know, Jesus sees him for who he is, loves him, calls him. And Matthew feels the acceptance that Jesus has for him and is is disarmed by that, and he is the outcast of outcasts and relationally. His willingness is now restoring. He finds ways that God opens up to restore his relationship with his parents, right? He's gently be delicately finding ways to [00:35:00] connect with the other disciples. You know, and this is all possible, but he's coming from where He's coming from.

Cyd Holsclaw: Right, right.

Barbara Grant: I love that show. For that reason, by the way.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, it's good to hear that because sometimes you don't know. If you don't know firsthand or you don't know a lot. I always felt like, I feel like this is a really good depiction of high functioning autism. But it's good to hear you say that as someone who's actually more familiar with,

Barbara Grant: my opinion, I haven't talked to Des, you know, any of any of them that are

Cyd Holsclaw: right.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. The, the directors and, yeah.

Barbara Grant: in my humble opinion.

Cyd Holsclaw: Sure. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: And, um, and so I, I think I wanna say something like, um, we're all on a journey, right? And so we only know ourselves and maybe the people we're really close to, but what could be like an avoidant practice? Um, that disengages emotionally or socially and becomes just like an intellectual pursuit of God. That can happen in people, right? So we don't [00:36:00] wanna say that just studying the Bible actually isn't a very spiritualized way of avoiding God. 'cause that does happen. But for other people, that could be, you know. a multitude of reasons that could be where God is meeting them regularly. Uh, and so we always just need to be constantly just evaluating like, how is our relationship with God?

Is it growing? Um, and, and then trying to test those things. This, am I being overly anxious about my relationship with God, living in the jungle, as we would say, am I being overly avoidant, living in the desert, um, or, you know, and those are possibly. Neurotypical ways of, of saying, but, but really our goal for introducing kind of attachment language to the church was always just that we would get a little bit more, I guess, sophisticated.

That's not the, that's the word that jumped to mind, but a little more granular

Barbara Grant: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: in how we describe these paths as we all together, our journeying toward the secure pastor and that our paths are all. different. Um, and that, and that that's [00:37:00] okay. And we can be met and moved by God in different ways and how God meets me might be not, not anywhere near how God meets somebody else.

Barbara Grant: and, and any, any lens that we're looking through today, any series of lenses maybe gonna evolve and we'll have better lenses to look at, you know, just like we could see the universe so much more clearly. Today than, than Galileo could see it. It was still a telescope. But yeah, I think, you know, we're doing better now, so we're gonna understand this better and better.

And I think just keeping an open mind and um, um, knowing that God is in control, he is presenting himself through the Holy Spirit to every one. Who he can, who's willing to entertain an impact on some level. And he is pulling all things into himself. And that is regardless of neuro profile or know, developmental or whatever, God is in [00:38:00] control.

Conclusion and Resources

Cyd Holsclaw: Amen. That feels like a beautiful way to wrap up our conversation. That was just really well put and aligns with the good news that we're always wanting to proclaim too, is that you are not stuck where you are. And God is always revealing himself to you, meeting you right where you are, and always inviting you to move further and deeper into the life that he has and the love that he has for you.

So the way you summed that up is just really lovely. So Barbara, where where can people find you? Where can they learn more about you and what you're doing?

Barbara Grant: Thank you. Yes. Um, uh, if they just Google Barbara Grant, neurodiverse coach or autism coach to define me, but I have a website which. Maybe will be in your show notes. Uh, and it's bg.

Geoff Holsclaw: Absolutely.

Barbara Grant: My name BG HC for hope for couples. So bgc.com. And I give anyone who needs it, um, of a free 20 minute [00:39:00] to me. How can I be a resource for you? You know, what groups do I have, what classes? What, uh, one-on-one coaching can I do with you? And. you and your spouse and I, I'm very flexible, so I'm always trying to respond to the needs as God brings them to my door.

Cyd Holsclaw: Beautiful. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: have also the book and the podcast, uh, linked in the show notes too. Well, thank you so much for your time today and we're so glad that we got connected, uh, a little bit over a year ago.

Barbara Grant: Amen. Thank you.

Cyd Holsclaw: All right. Bye.

Barbara Grant: Bye.