Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

113 The Urgency of Grace: Finding Relief in a Worn-Out World (with David Zahl)

• Season 7 • Episode 113

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We are all looking for a bit of relief. Some pain relief, relief from stress, the relief of getting the kids off to school or maybe to bed on time. But do we think of God’s grace as the big relief?

In this episode, we welcome back David Zahl, of Mockingbird Ministries. 

David introduces his new book titled The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace for a Worn-Out World, which focuses on how God's grace is the ultimate relief we all seek in our stress-filled lives. They discuss various aspects of grace, including forgiveness, imputation, and surrender, and how these can alleviate the modern pressures of status anxiety and the demand for control. The conversation delves into the importance of recognizing suffering and offering consolation through the grace of God. David also shares insights on creating church communities that provide relief rather than additional burdens.

00:00 Introduction: Seeking Relief
00:39 Guest Introduction: David Zahl
01:24 The Urgency of Grace
02:56 Grace in a Pressure Cooker World
06:11 Defining Grace: The Big Relief
08:49 Forgiveness: Relief from Regret
14:03 Imputation: Relief from Status Anxiety
21:00 Surrender: Relief from Control
27:09 Cultivating Communities of Relief
30:10 Conclusion and Farewell

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Introduction: Seeking Relief

Geoff Holsclaw: We are all looking for a bit of relief, some pain relief, relief from stress, the relief of getting the kids off to school or maybe getting them back to bed on time. But do we think of God's grace as the big relief that we're all looking for? That's what we're talking about today. Welcome back to the Attaching to God podcast.

Produced by Embodied Faith. 

Guest Introduction: David Zahl

Geoff Holsclaw: We have as a guest, again, a returning guest, David Zahl. He is the founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries, which has several things going on, magazine, podcast, a blog, and a bunch of other great stuff. He is the author of Seculosity, uh, subtitled, how Career Parenting Technology, food, politics, and Romance have become our new Religion.

But he also was on to [00:01:00] talk about low anthropology, which is a great book. But today we're gonna be talking about how Grace is or should be. A big relief for all of us. David, thank you so much for being on with us.

David Zahl: That's a such a pleasure, Geoff. Thanks for having me.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, well I always, I just always love when you come out with another book and so, and they're short and they're very accessible. Uh, and so I was like, oh, I gotta get David back on. So thank you for being willing. 

The Urgency of Grace

Geoff Holsclaw: But why, why do you feel like there needs to be another book on Grace that comes out? You're kind of like the, in my circles, you're like the Grace Guy.

It's

David Zahl: Ah,

Geoff Holsclaw: Dave's always talking about, Dave's always talking about grace.

David Zahl: well, I mean, if I'm always talking about Grace, I haven't actually written a book about Grace, so that was, you know, personal branding. Geoff, I have to get, I have to make sure my personal branding is on point. No.

Geoff Holsclaw: is The Urgency of Grace, and I had to say it that way. The urgency of Grace for Worn Out World.

David Zahl: Yes. Well, I, I, uh, why I write this book, I, I felt like. [00:02:00] Low anthropology was, uh, important for me to do, but it was also a bit of a downer, and I wanted to do something that was just, this is good news and, um, I why write another book about grace is, it's why, why preach another sermon? You know? It's

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

David Zahl: the, the message of the gospel, which I think is the message of God's grace for real.

People, sinners, you know, is, um, it has to be always, uh, refreshed and translated anew and spoken out of, in a particular way by a particular person to particular people. And so I, um, you know, even like the, the books about Grace that I really like, you read them now and you're like, oh, there's, there's a few things in here that are a little dated or, or some updated references would be nice.

Um, some, you know. Increased sensitivity to current spiritual conditions, how those are playing out. 

Grace in a Pressure Cooker World

David Zahl: And um, so that's what I, what I wanted to, I [00:03:00] also feel like, you know, on a, on a more macro scale, Geoff, like the world is so full of. Despair right now. And you see that in the sort of deaths of despair rates and you also see it, you know, in, in other metrics of mental health.

And so I, I thought what, what is something really constructive and positive that I can bring to bear in this moment, um, with the gifts God has given me? And I felt that. A book that's simply about grace, not about replacement religion, not about the human condition and frailty and limitation. What's just, what's good, what's what's, and, and the best thing I know is the grace of God.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Amen. And we gotta. Make that good news again. I just had Andrew Root on, um, and he just came out with a book called, uh, on Evangelism and an Age of Despair, and you're just talking about, uh, and we can maybe smash, uh, his perspective and yours [00:04:00] together in a second. But yeah, that, that age of anxiety, people are talking about mental health crisis.

Um, you talk about, you kind of zero in on this, this kind of idea of being worn out. Or exhausted, uh, Christians as well as people outside the church. Um, could you just speak to that a little bit, uh, as kind of setting that stage or this maybe the contextualizing moment that you're kind of speaking the relief of Grace into?

David Zahl: Sure. Well, I think that one thing Andrew Root talks a lot about is acceleration and the sense that everything is speeding up. Um, in life, not only, not only is, uh, you know, phone your phone's software getting faster, but the, um, you know, uh, travel sports are starting at age five instead of age six, and there's now two practices a week instead of one.

Um. You know, kids in college are getting internships, you know, after their freshman year instead of after their junior year. Um, there there's all sorts of ways in which the world feels like it's getting faster and he, he [00:05:00] root and I think after Hart MIT, Rosas talks about how modernity is the process of speeding things up.

And so. I feel that acutely in my own life, I live, I, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna pretend I'm someone, I'm not. I'm living in a, kind of a comfortable, uh, affluent area of the, um, Mid-Atlantic in America in 2025. And so theoretically, I. I should be living a pretty comfortable, pressure free life. And yet that's not the case.

That's not the case for any of my peers either. The, the sense of life being a pressure cooker, um, if is very acute and it's a pressure cooker. As a parent, it's a pressure cooker. As a, as a someone involved in church ministry, it's a pressure cooker. As a writer, it's a pressure cooker in terms of social media.

It's a pressure cooker in terms of relationships. And what's, what's asked of you? Um. And so if it's that much of a pressure cooker for me in this place that's supposed to be easy, then, then perhaps everyone is actually feeling like [00:06:00] this. It's not, I'm not, um, so I, I, that's what I wanted to address and I, I think that, yeah, life is a pressure cooker.

I don't think anyone c can't relate to that.

Defining Grace: The Big Relief

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, let's, so not to have another sermon, another talk, or another definition of grace, but let's have yours. How, how, how do you connect like grace then with this sense of relief from this pressure cooker of life? Just that kind of at a big level. And then I want to kind of hit some of these kind of lower level kind of things, forgiveness, surrender, and others, uh, as we go.

David Zahl: Sure. I mean, I tried to break up Grace into a variety of different modes, you might say, like angles to the diamond. Um. And I mean, you can, I think unmerited favor is a great way to talk about grace. Uh, a gift with no strings attached is a great way to talk about grace. In fact, that's where I begin is the, the language of gift versus the language of deserving or earning.

And that's, I think, Paul line language. And I'm [00:07:00] trying to, I draw on John Barkley's work a little bit there. Um, but grace is, um. They're one way. Love is another way to talk about it. I try to, I, my, my working definition for the book is Grace is the big relief at the heart of the Christian faith. So if, if, if the law or the ought or the should in person's life feels like pressure, I.

Feels like a weight. Grace is the, is the feeling of that pressure being removed. And there are a variety of ways in which that happens. In the book I talk about, you know, for those who feel rejected, grace can feel like favor. For those who feel like life is always getting faster, grace might feel like rest.

For those who feel like the nonstop pressure to produce grace can often play, can be a form of grace. Um. And, you know, and then, you know, for those who feel guilty, grace feels like his pardon for those who feel indebted, grace feels like forgiveness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. [00:08:00] So I wanted to, um, not ignore the affective or emotional aspect of this, but hopefully not in a hokey way that was, uh, cheap.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, well, let's like get under the hood then. Uh. For 'cause. I love that. That giant list in my mind goes to kind of the Old Testament understanding of hesed a covenants, um, these things unmerited like God moving in relationship toward us, not because God gets anything out of it. Right. And so, of course, this is attaching to God podcast is it's.

That parental relationship where, you know, good parents give good things to their children, not because they're, uh, deserving or there's some sort of transaction, but because they just do. Right. Uh, and that happens in, in a bunch of different ways. 

Forgiveness: Relief from Regret

Geoff Holsclaw: So you, you talk about, um, and we'll just, we only have time for a couple of these, but you talk about forgiveness, you know, forgiveness in some circles that I come from, um. go one of two ways. It's just [00:09:00] like, well, you forgive and forget and it's kind of like something you beat up people with, now you kind of get the therapeutic response, uh, or trauma-informed response of which there's some good but also some bad, which basically says. You know, forgiveness is almost optional or it's a hindrance to kind of recovery

David Zahl: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: to healing or something like that. So, but you talk about forgiveness as relief from regret, so can you kind of connect some of those dots about, um, how you're kind of seeing forgiveness in the relief there?

David Zahl: Sure. Well, I, I start out by talking about debt and the experience of debt. Everyone who's in debt is excited about forgiveness. I don't care who you are. Uh, and we, we get out of those theological circles or the trauma, um, I. Therapeutic circles where that, that, where that are skeptical about forgiveness, which I, I'm, I'm well aware of these arguments today, but anyone who owes, uh, a university a huge amount of money, if they were told that they could get out of debt or someone was going to forgive their debt, they would [00:10:00] say, yes, please.

Um. But I want to, then, debt is usually linked to some sort of, uh, past, uh, decision to say the least or past behavior. And so in my mind, uh, forgiveness is often I. I think it's the one way I to find it's these, the, the willingness not to hold someone's past against them. And everyone has something. We all deal with the burden of the unchangeability of the past.

I think this is a pretty acute thing for, uh, people in midlife, or at least I could speak as a male midlife crisis. A lot of that has to do with regrets. And feeling the weight of that and seeing your life choices play out in certain ways. So I think, um, forgiveness is, is really the answer that, um, is, is is the way that God's grace plays out for people who are burdened by a, uh, past that they don't, that they wish [00:11:00] had gone differently.

It doesn't necessarily have to have a moral valence to it. It, it can, but, um. I'm interested in forgiveness for those reasons. Um, you know, I, I get skeptical of skepticism about forgiveness because I think it's, if we're really not in favor of forgiveness, and of course the command to forgive someone who's abused you, for example, that's the law.

Like that is, that's, um, you can't, it doesn't work like no one says, okay. I've decided, you know, but it can also be, it can be manipulative. It can be oppressive. However, if you have done wrong, you have to get to the place where you, you identify as the person who, who needs forgiveness, who is at least has some sort of regret, if not some infraction in their past.

All of a sudden, you're like, I, I, I'm not worried about what this means on a social level. I just know that I want out from under this pain. [00:12:00] And so. All of a sudden, uh, if you've actually needed forgiveness, then it feels like grace because it's not, it's not deserved. It's not, uh, it's not a, it's not transactional.

I do this in order to get forgiveness. It has to do with the person who's forgiving you.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. And. And forgiveness and reconciliation. Just, you know, I know you know this, but for the listeners, forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing, right? So you can move in and out of forgiveness for yourself or for others without saying the relationship is restored or it's whole, or it's safe, or that, you know, there's movement, right?

So those things

David Zahl: I can forgive you and never have to, uh, see your face again.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right. Or I could forgive you and. You and I and or a larger community can, uh, put in other safeguards,

David Zahl: Hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: uh, to prevent harm and abuse from continuing, um, and still acknowledging those things. I think I should have looked this up before we jumped on, but, um, and this [00:13:00] relates to surrender and control that we're gonna move into in a second, but forgiveness is. Basically saying, um, I can't change the past, like the, the past is the past, you know, but when you, you kind of live in an unforgiveness, it's kind of like a desire or a demand that the past would've been different. Um, and we just can't, we, you know, you can't get back there, uh, and make it different. We just have to kind of, you know, receive it, but then, uh, let the debt go, right?

The debt of the past or something like that.

David Zahl: Yeah. That's why I think debt can be a, like a helpful way in for folks. It doesn't always feel, again, terribly moral. It just feels like I can't get, it's the past that's weighing on me.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, this is why, uh, for all the listeners, this is why many, um, traditions pray the Lord's Prayer with, forgive us, our debts as we forgive our debtors, rather than forgive us our transgressions, uh, or forgive us, those who transgress against us. Alright, well moving on to the next one. Uh, actually I'm gonna switch the order a little bit. [00:14:00] Let's talk about a theological word. Um. 

Imputation: Relief from Status Anxiety

Geoff Holsclaw: In many circles would be unknown or has forgotten about it, but this word imputation and you link it to relief from status anxiety for those who don't regularly work in the world of maybe the Lutheran theology or some reformed theologies that you're more acquainted with.

What is imputation and what, what is that doing? What work does it do theologically.

David Zahl: Imputation is, um, when God treats, uh, you, uh, as if you are something you're not. Or, uh, God reckons righteousness to a person, even though they don't, they don't possess it on their own. Uh, it's God gives you a, gives you a status that, uh, is, is God's to give and rather than one that you've sort of earned or possessed.

But I mean, the shorthand is, I think it's the imputation is sort of the how of love if people, I, I, I don't feel lovable. I know what I'm like, uh, I or, and in the moment I, um. [00:15:00] I'm well aware of my shortcomings, and yet this person was given to love me and to treat me as though I was lovable. Um, all of a sudden that has a, has a response in a person's life.

Almost all, not every time. It's not a formula, but many of our great experiences of healing can be traced to some form of imputation, someone treating us as lovable when we felt or were least deserving of love.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

David Zahl: I, and I give a lot of different examples of it, and I, I trace it to status anxiety. I mean, I think that people are anxious about their status, um, no matter what rung of the socioeconomic ladder they're on.

And I talk about my, my brother and his wife. He, he got married to a woman who, uh, had been a world traveler and had sort of Delta Platinum status, and they show up at the airport for his, um. For his, uh, for their honeymoon. And the, the line to check in is super long. And she says, that's okay, honey. Come with me.

We are going to, we can go in the [00:16:00] status line, the, the platinum status line. And he is, she's allows her platinum status to envelop him as though it were his own. Um, and she does this out of love, not because she has to. And, um, it's not fictitious. He's actually checked in it, you know, she, she did. Get those miles and, uh, it's a beautiful word.

I think it's, uh, so sometimes it's been seen as antiquated or, uh, it gets, um, I guess, uh, degraded in some way. I, I think, but I've found that in pastoral ministry or just relationships in general, some understanding of imputation,

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

David Zahl: um, is, is, is essential.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, and usually we live out of. Like the negative use of that word, right? Like, oh, you're imputing motives to me or Right. Or you're projecting on me as maybe some, uh, like in a, in a marital relationship. Um, I, I run into this, you know, with [00:17:00] my wife, that I'm looking at her like her past self from like 10 years early in our marriage, and I see her doing something and then I jump on it and she's like, I'm not that person anymore.

Right. I'm imputing like a certain identity that. You know, because of God's grace in her life, she's actually grown out of, right. Uh, so I think a lot of times we, live out of the negative side of that imputation,

David Zahl: Totally.

Geoff Holsclaw: under these things. And, and yet the good news is that God is like seeing us differently.

David Zahl: Yes.

Geoff Holsclaw: treating us in ways we don't even see in ourselves. Is that the, is

David Zahl: Yeah, I think it can be that. I think sometimes it's, it's actually a pure imputation where God is sort of treating us as something we're not, and then we end up sort of becoming that thing. But it could be someone sees something in you that you don't see in yourself. I think that's. Very, that's more like horizontal imputation if you want to differentiate that from, uh, vertical.

But it's, it's an identity thing usually. It's, um, that, that you were given an identity that is not really yours to, to, to [00:18:00] claim, but it's someone else's to give you. And, uh, I think it's a very beautiful, um, beautiful thing. And you're, you're right, it does get mixed up with sort of. Stop projecting negative emo, but what if you, you were in the arms of a loving God who projected righteousness belovedness to you at your least lovable.

Like that's what we're talking about when Grace I, another definition for Grace, for example, is unwarranted generosity.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

David Zahl: I like that. And, um, if someone has treated you with unwarranted generosity, meaning they're, they're generous for, because they, because of something about them rather than something about you.

Um, and that makes all the difference in the moment. We, you're usually talking about some form of imputation, at least in the, my understanding of it.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, for some people I think, could you connect these things? Because I think some people would then think of like, life in Christ. Uh, is that part of the iation or is that something that's different? Like understanding and [00:19:00] identifying ourselves as living in Christ.

David Zahl: I think there's, that's a lot of the ways that people get to imputation from the traditions that talk about it. Um, being, being buried with Christ, being raised with Christ, uh, being found in Christ. These are all, um, I.

Geoff Holsclaw: It's like being found in the, the line with your, your new wife to, to skip, you know, security,

David Zahl: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: found in the, in this new relationship that allows you these benefits on your own you didn't have, or maybe it's not the same. It's not the same thing, but they're related. I

David Zahl: It's different from then when I have the platinum status myself and I, I look at the people who don't have it. It's like, ha, suckers. You know? And I think of myself as like, I, I know what I'm doing. I've gamed the system. I'm so great. I can't believe, or the security lines so long, or something like that.

This is when we are talking about, is when you're the person who is in the long line and someone says, actually come with me, you know? Um, in a good way.

Geoff Holsclaw: And to the status anxiety, [00:20:00] um, right, because you could, in your own mind, feel like you've achieved. Status on your own, right? That I have achieved these things. I have a doctorate, I'm a pastor, right? This is Geoff Hollo speaking, right? You know, I've written books, right? I have a status that allows me go in the green room at a conference and not, you know, blah, blah, blah, right?

Uh, and so you can also have that pride of, of the high status, but you can also suffering under the anxiety of a low status. But you're, but the imputation is a big relief. Like you can get off that hamster wheel no matter where you find yourself. And because we're. Everyone's exhausted. No matter how high or low that you feel you're, you're on, right?

David Zahl: Oh gosh. The jockeying for status is, uh, endless and, um, dehumanizing and, uh, but also pathological, like it's, our culture is set up to generate lot vast amounts of money according to people's anxiety about where they fall on the, the, uh, the scoreboard.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm. Yeah. [00:21:00] 

Surrender: Relief from Control

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, so let's shift then to surrender. Uh, you talk about, uh, surrender as being relief from control. And we've talked about forgiveness and imputation, that these are all related obviously, 'cause they're kind of grace. But how do you, aren't most of us trying to be in control with our lives? How is surrendering a good thing?

David Zahl: Well, like I have to, you think about it in terms of addiction, um, I. Addiction is oftentimes a form of coping or self-medicating or, um, some form of, uh, trying to control your emotional landscape through, uh, uh, some form of opiate, uh, you know, whether that be an actual opiate or just something else. And any 12 step program would say that.

Actually freedom from the oppressive addiction that's killing you and destroying all your relationships. Uh, the first step is some form of surrender, and that's why surrender, uh, often is very painful and it's something we [00:22:00] resist. But, um. Yeah, there's a, I, I think there's an inescapable, like the, the, the world tells us we have to be in control of everything all the time, including other people and including the world stage or all of social media or something like that.

But of, we don't have that power, we never did. And, uh, to surrender is to be actually, um, be, um, place your life in, in God's hands. And God always had had your life in his hands. So, um. It, but I, but I find it to be for people. I mean, I, I consider myself like a bit of a control freak in certain ways. That's what makes me difficult to work with.

It makes me difficult to be married to, you know, constantly. Did you remember this? What, you know, what about this? Have we done this yet? Um, uh, and the moments in which I, the closest emotional approximation of faith and serenity. In my life [00:23:00] have been when I've been able to surrender by God's grace, control, um, and control to the one who actually has the power to affect things.

So I talk about this in the rearing of, about this in terms of the rearing of children in the book. Um, there's lots of more secular forms of getting at this. I mean, I think Mel Robbins has sold more books this year than anyone in the whole world, and her, her entire. Philosophy is this, let them philosophy, you know, which is if someone's going to act this way or hurt you in someone or do something, let them, and I mean, that's all just surrender talk.

Uh, I, I don't know if it has any kind of connection to there being any kind of divine presence or agency in the world, but, um, hands off, pays off, let go. Let God, these are, these are, uh, there's a reason these slogans. Have given such life to so many sufferers in the [00:24:00] world, and that's because they have experienced grace in the surrender of their panicked, um, often, uh, manipulative attempts to dictate everything about their lives.

Geoff Holsclaw: So I want to dig into that a little bit about the, 'cause you just brought up suffering and sorrow and back to when I was, uh, talking with Andrew Root, he, you know, he's basically saying like the new evangelism. Is to be truthful about our sorrows. because our whole society is, is built. Uh, and maybe this, and I want to know if this is kind of congruent with maybe what you're saying, but he says, our whole society is built about running away from the deep, kind of soulful longings, um, of sorrow.

And, and now we're, we're. You know, addicted to wellbeing, mental health, uh, productivity, living in control, uh, and anything that's out of our control that might lead to sorrows. We have to protect ourselves again. And Christians just need to kind of, and he's very much of a [00:25:00] theologian of the cross and you know it, and he's just like, Christians need to tell the truth about human suffering and that we have one.

You know, we're, we're recording this on Good Friday. We have one who has walked the road to suffering with us. Um, and has led us through, and that, that's good news rather than avoiding it. Does that, does, how does that fit with this idea of relief, um, or maybe relief from control for you? Is that congruent?

Is that a

David Zahl: A hundred percent. I love that book, by the way. I've, I've read it. I think it's fantastic. He's, he talks about evangelism as really consolation and grace is consolation like that, that, you know, someone would say, well, there's a lot more to the Christian faith than just consolation. Well, it's like, well, there's never less than that.

Um, and, uh, if, if you're not receiving some consolation from your faith, then it, um, it will not hold up when the storms hit. And I love Andy's, uh, thrust about being honest. Like, like people are already suffering. Like, you don't have to, uh, it's not like you're, you have to be complicit [00:26:00] in it. But to be honest about it, and I think his, his definition is we follow it, be a evangelist, is to follow Christ into sorrow.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

David Zahl: And so, um, the, the sorrow, um, is what's underneath a lot of times the sorrow and the fear is what's underneath a lot of our attempts to control. Um, and I mean, Luther would say there's some un there's a lot of unbelief mixed into that. That's why we're, you know, grabbing so tightly.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

David Zahl: So I, uh, I just sign onto it a hundred percent what he says about all of that.

And I think that to, to the person who has been told that they have somehow failed, that, that their suffering is their fault and that they have failed to control things adequately. Grace feels like give up, like, um, and, and, and, and, and see that God is already present right here. In your pain, in your suffering, [00:27:00] and that's where these infectious and in fact, joyful resurrection life begins.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. 

Cultivating Communities of Relief

Geoff Holsclaw: So how, just as we kind of finish up now, how, how do we, or how have you kind of, uh, helped cultivate communities or churches become places of a big relief, but become places of relief rather than people showing up and here's more ways you failed, here's more ways God's upset with you. Here's more ways we need to impact the community for. You know, vision X, um, but rather our places of relief. How do you cultivate that?

David Zahl: Well, I think the radical honesty is a big part of that. I think that, um, if, when in my preaching, you always want to address people as though they're in pain. Even if they don't look like they're in pain, even if you're, they're, you're told that everyone is super privileged or shouldn't, shouldn't, you know, should be happy.

You have to accept that everyone is really, actually the truest thing about a person is that [00:28:00] they're, um, that they're, they, they're, they're really, they're in, they're in pain, they're suffering, and so. But within that, so you address that, you acknowledge it, you describe it, and it might be that you, um, you know, uh, you use vivid terms in that way and, and that, that upsets some people because it's, oh, that's place is a downer.

But within that framework, with at that moment, that's when you bring to bear, hopefully the grace of God, that, that God not only sees, God knows God loves and God rescues, um. So you proclaim the gospel in that space. It can't just be a pie in the sky, nonstop affirmation thing, um, that doesn't take, uh, suffering seriously.

And self-inflict itself we're complicit in this. That's what to be a sinner, is to be someone who is oftentimes in knots of their own tying. Um, not always. [00:29:00] So I think that there's a huge amount of that. I think that, uh, so that that's what happens for us on Sunday. I know if someone leaves and they feel that they've been given homework, um, that is, we've failed somehow to console, uh.

And what we do in our context is the consoled person often wants to console others, and we provide nonstop avenues. If someone says, Hey, I wanna start this kind of ministry, I wanna kind of do this sort of mercy thing. In the, in the community, you just get behind it as much as humanly possible. Um. So we are, we're people that sort of stress the vertical element, um, before we get to the community.

And as a result, the community flourishes and you see all sorts of amazing things happen. I also believe that you have, you um, have to have a kind of a robust understanding that the Holy Spirit is alive. And doing good work in the world that it's, and it's not necessarily up [00:30:00] to you to get this right, that, um, you can trust that God is at work even when you can't quite discern how.

Conclusion and Farewell

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, we'll just, uh, finish up. I just, I think I, we hear in John's gospel that you know. We don't love God or God doesn't love us because we first loved him, right? But that he first loved us. And the language we use for this podcast is we, we become more attached to God because God was already attached to us.

And this whole book just feels like speaking of grace, uh, in all these different facets and modes, uh, is just all the abundant ways that God is offering that, uh, you know, kind of a, I was gonna say a clean and pure, which. words coming up, but like, you know, but I think they're accurate, like this, this pure gift of grace relationship, that in many ways we do resist, uh, because of our own sin and our struggle.

Uh, and yet God is, is welcoming us. So thank you for, uh, for [00:31:00] taking the time to do all the things you do and to write this book. Again, the book is called The Big Relief, the Urgency of Grace for Worn Out World. David, where can people just follow you and Mockingbird and all the stuff that's going on?

David Zahl: Sure. I, uh, I'm on mockingbird em bird.com. We have conferences and we've got an amazing, uh. Print journal that comes out. Uh, I also co-host, uh, the Mocking Cast, which is our podcast. And that's, uh, been a really fun thing to do. Uh, the book's available wherever people, uh, can buy books. And, uh, I'm on, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram.

Love to connect there.

Geoff Holsclaw: You are in all the places.

David Zahl: you know, when you, it's, I hope to, I hope to one day be pre a little less present, but, uh, such as the them's the, uh. That, that that's the game these days. So anyway,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much for being on.

David Zahl: thank you Geoff.

Geoff Holsclaw: all the listeners have really benefited from this. Thank you.

David Zahl: Thank you for having me. 

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