Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

108 Expressing the Inexpressible: "Hesed" and God's Lovingkindness (with Michael Card)

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God’s true nature is beyond human comprehension. It can never be fully expressed in human words. But Scriptures uses one particular word to describe the distinctiveness of God’s character; this is the Hebrew word hesed. 

Michael Card is an award-winning musician and performing artist. His many books include Scribbling in the Sand, A Fragile Stone, and Inexpressible: Hesed and the Mystery of God's Lovingkindness

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Introduction to God's Inexpressible Nature

Geoff Holsclaw: 

God's true nature is beyond comprehension. It can never be fully expressed in human words, but scripture uses a particular word to describe the distinctiveness of God's character. 

Meet Michael Card: Musician and Author

Geoff Holsclaw: This is the Hebrew word hesset, and today we are talking with Michael Card, otherwise known as just Mike, as he informed me, he's joining us today.

He is the award-winning music musician and performing artist. He earned a master's degree in biblical studies from Western Kentucky University under. The pretty famous Dr. William Leighton. And, uh, he has written many books and we're talking to him specifically about his book, inexpressible, uh, subtitled Hesed, and the Mystery of God's Loving Kindness.

Mike, thanks so much for being on with us

Michael Card: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I love talking [00:01:00] about this subject.

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, well, I, I love it too. 

Exploring the Concept of Hesed

Geoff Holsclaw: As we were talking just before we recorded, um, you know, when I'm reading through the psalms. You just come across that word and the more that I've studied it, not as much as you have, uh, it's just like, it's just has all this meaning and this so much texture to it is all I can think of and how I've been on this journey of studying attachment and attachment theory and how it relates to God.

And I was just like, the Bible's been speaking about this all the time. So when I finally came across your book, which came out several years ago, I was like, wow, if I could get 'em on the podcast, I'm sure everybody would really

Michael Card: Well, I wanted to call the book Untranslatable, but they didn't like that copy, so they, that, that title. So they came up with inexpressible, which isn't totally right because Hess, it can be expressed, but uh, it can't be defined.

Geoff Holsclaw: I can't be exhausted. Well, let's jump right into it. What, how did you, um, get an interest to, to write about this topic?

The Transition from Lament to Worship

Michael Card: well, I had done a book on lament. And, uh, which [00:02:00] is another topic, people don't tend to be all that interested in, unfortunately. And what I noticed was, and all the psalms do this, they transition and it'll be lament, lament, lament, and then something happens and then it becomes worship.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Michael Card: And, uh, the, there are only two laments that don't do that.

88 and 89 don't do that. Psalm 88 and 89 don't do it. Uh, or they do it differently. Uh, but at three or four of the most important laments when, when the transition happened, there was this word, and it's because if you're hesed, we're not destroyed, or it'll be, you know, some, some, some, uh, uh, occurrence of this word.

And I had studied Hebrew, not, not, you know, I didn't, I wasn't a, a, a, an A student, but, uh, I, I had studied Hebrew and I, I don't remember that word. And, but then, you know, you start looking at it, Hasidic Judaism, I mean, there's a whole class of Jews who define themselves [00:03:00] as people who do hesed and uh, and hesed is always something you do.

It's a verb. But, um, anyway, that's how I, I hit on it. I saw these laments we change from lament to worship at the appearance of this word.

Geoff Holsclaw: So it was kind of like you were noticing it was like this hinge that the door between, uh, lament and, uh, joy or uh, or something praise

Michael Card: Because God is the God of Ed. My, my lamenting turns into worship and I I focus on him. Not that there's anything wrong with lamenting, the Bible encourages us to lament.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right. But it's within like a larger context of, of Hesset. So let's jump into that a little bit. So, at the beginning of your book, I was thumbing through it, you know, I was looking at it and reading through it. And then, you know, I think there's like the. You know, let's see. 

The Complexity of Translating Hesed

Geoff Holsclaw: At the beginning, you know, you got the, the, um, dedication, but then right after that there's this page, it just says Hesed, and then it has like a zillion other words, like, why are there so many words for [00:04:00] Hesed?

Like, you know,

Michael Card: Well, that's what,

Geoff Holsclaw: so hard to translate?

Michael Card: well, that's what makes it such a fascinating, fascinating word. I mean, there are a lot of people who believe, and I think this is probably true, that words. In and of themselves derive their meaning from context, from the context they're used in. And some people will go even so far as to say words don't have meaning, they get their meaning context.

That's a little, a little extreme, but I think the reason hes is translated 269 different ways I. Is that it is used in so many different contexts, but, uh, and so in one sense it's untranslatable. My translation is a sentence. 

Hesed in the Context of Jesus and the Cross

Michael Card: My translation for Hassad is hassad is when the person from whom I have a right to expect nothing gives me everything that's has.

And it was most. Clearly defined on the cross of Jesus. I stand before the cross of Jesus. I have no right to expect anything from [00:05:00] Jesus. I nailed him there. What do I get from, I get everything. That's He.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So that, and a lot of people, I think would connect that to then like Grace

Michael Card: It's,

Geoff Holsclaw: love for us.

Michael Card: it's grace. It is mercy. Look, well hey, in 15, in uh, 15. 1565. I think that's the right year. Um, um, uh, one of the translators of the Hebrew Bible, and I'll, I'll remember his name in a second. Um, the word loving kindness was a word that invented. It was made up just to translate, translate the word he said.

Because they, they couldn't find a word, uh, guy's name. But anyway, uh, that, yeah, loving kindness was made up to translate PEs

Geoff Holsclaw: All right, so that's one of the, one of the terms. What are some of the other ones that, uh, I could read in here for you? I don't wanna, uh,

Michael Card: Whenever you hear compounds like faithful [00:06:00] loyalty or you, you know, the, the, if you look at that list in the book, most of them are two, two words. What, what you realize is the translator is struggling to translate the word tested. And it, it, it sure is, it is faithfulness, it's loyalty. And, and, uh, two of the psalms that's even translated negatively, I can't, I can't remember, oh.

Disgrace in one of the trans, uh, psalms that's translated disgrace. I. And you go, whoa, you know, whoa, that doesn't sound like, you know, that doesn't make sense. But given the context of the psalm that that appears in, it is the right, right way to translate it. Uh, but Hesed is, I think it has the largest range of meaning of any word in any language.

I, I think that's one of the uniqueness is it has, it is just this amazing word. But then again. If, if you, uh, if, if it's defined for us in, in Jesus, I think, I think Jesus incarnates it [00:07:00] in the beginning was the word logos right? I think the word was Ed. I think the word he incarnates is Ed. When the person from whom I have a right to expect nothing gives me everything.

That's, that's the translation of it.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, I love that. And that brings together like the covenants, um,

Michael Card: Covenant loyalty.

Geoff Holsclaw: of God, covenant loyalty, the. The word made flesh and dwelt among us is that, as you know, uh, that language for a tabernacle or temple, and the temple is the gift of God's presence. And so, back to your definition, what is it?

The, the one who I deserve nothing. Who gives me everything that is God's motion toward humanity, even in the midst of our sinfulness. I just wanna read a couple others, because some people, you know, they'll have read psalms or other, you know, so there's, uh, love, love and kindness. Merciful love, affectionate love, you know, a bunch of things with love, unfailing love.

But then you get into other ones like covenant faithfulness, covenant love, covenant friendship, covenant community, and then, uh, other [00:08:00] words with like loyalty, uh, loving loyalty and then merciful loyalty and things like that. And it, when you said it's untranslatable that you know, 'cause I teach systematic theology, so it's like, well if God is truly infinite and inexhaustible, then it would make sense that the one word that tries to encapsulate God's motion.

Toward humanity in grace or love like would end up kind of continuing to peel off into all these meanings because you know God can't be expressed, which is kind of what you were getting at.

Michael Card: yeah, exactly. And, and, and it's, um, and again, I, I, I can't think of the, there's not another word remotely. Like the word he, I think in any, in any language. I mean, certainly not in Hebrew or Greek, that, or English, which are the only languages I know very, very much about. But uh, yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: I didn't know much about English until I started learning Greek.

Michael Card: Yeah. That's good.

Geoff Holsclaw: I was, I was raised in California where I, I, I [00:09:00] do not got good grammar and uh, you know, they didn't teach me, uh, a lot. But then I started learning, uh, Greek and Hebrew in, in, uh, in seminary. And I was like, oh, this is how English works.

Michael Card: Well, what, well, the first thing they do too with Greek is they go, oh, these are the words for love, Aeros, agape philo, and thi this is this kind of love and this is that kind of love. And again, I think is when the New Testament says, this is the love that God has for us. It they use philo. So are you saying that's a, that's, uh, a secondary because agape is supposed to be, you know, the most special.

And again, words get their meaning from the context. So, um, but I remember when I first saw that, I thought, okay, that, that blows away that whole rigid thing of this aeros means this, philo means this, you know, agape means this. And, and, and Hesed is an extreme example of that. You don't say, oh, Hesed means loving kindness. Well, it can.  

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, and it's, it seems [00:10:00] like possibly the New Testament writers in Greek were grabbing multiple words to fill in what their concept of Hess said was that they had gotten from the Old Testament. So one way to learn maybe the meaning of a word outside of a dictionary definition is to hear stories.

Right? And the Old Testament is full of stories. Is there like one or two stories, uh, that really kind of helped kind of express or encapsulate, uh, Hesed. Otherwise we could jump to, to Jesus. 'cause I know

Michael Card: Well, I mean,

Geoff Holsclaw: Jesus quite a bit

Michael Card: Jesus is the, is the extreme example. There's one, there's one story. 

Hesed in the Old Testament Stories

Michael Card: Uh, remember ette, the one who was weak in his feet. I don't know if he was one of David's, if one of David's sons or.

Geoff Holsclaw: He was, I believe, one of, um, king Saul's, maybe grandsons like Jonathan's son.

Michael Card: like that. Well, at one point after David, David has shown Heit to all these people. Right? Um, because, I mean, you know, Saul was his enemy, but, uh, at one point [00:11:00] that when they introduced introduced me, yet David says, is there anyone left I can show Hesed to? And the idea is this person doesn't deserve it.

But I'm gonna, I'm gonna. Care for them, and I don't know, um, show them, you know, what they don't deserve. I, I'm trying to think of o other examples. I mean, because the cross is such a per perfect one. I mean, Jesus is constantly showing Hesed, uh, to, uh, to re reaching out to people who, you know, that his, his brothers will say, don't go, don't go back to Jerusalem.

Pe people are waiting there to kill you. You know, so Jesus, and, and, and they, they aren't making that up. That ends, ends up happening. But Jesus is there to, to, um, tell them that the good news of the kingdom, what's the good news of the kingdom, is that God has begun to reign. That's his message, and he tells that to his, to people who that are, are his enemies, who don't believe in, who end up, um, [00:12:00] crucifying him and, and basically give him, give him a hard time, the whole three years of his ministry.

Um, so Jesus, Jesus is the paradigm. He's the one who incarnates this idea of hesed. But you do see people doing, uh, acts of hesed all through the Hebrew Bible and testament.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, so you said that Hesed is like a verb. 

Hesed as a Verb and Its Implications

Geoff Holsclaw: Could you talk a little bit more about that? 'cause you know, here, especially in our modern west, we like, we kind of think of love as kind of an emotion or a sentiment or a feeling. Um, but you kind of went right off and said, well, Hess's a verb. Could you kind of explain kind of that and why it makes such a difference

Michael Card: Okay, well, Hebrew in general, Hebrew in general is a verbal language. Uh, all the roots are verbs. So, um, that's why one of the newest things I, I just read a, a, you know, massive article where the, the writer was explaining, you know, Jesus' message is. It, we translate it the way, the way it's in the, [00:13:00] in the New Testament is the, the good news of the kingdom.

That's his. Um, but this guy was saying, given the fact that Hebrew is verbal, Jesus thinks in verbs, we think in towns we we're

Geoff Holsclaw: Right. Concepts and abstractions.

Michael Card: And so this guy saying, when Jesus says, announces the good news of the kingdom, what that really means is that the good news is that God has begun to reign. That's the kind of the verbal form. And I understand that that's much better news and much clearer good news to me than the kingdom is here. I kind of, well, what does that mean? Where's, I know you're the king, but, but, but when Jesus says, if, if, if this is, if this is correct, um, the good news is that God has begun to reign. I get that. Uh, and so it, yeah, it is interesting thinking in, in, uh, in verb.

So we, our educational system is based on learning the names of things. And we think if we know the name of something, we understand it, [00:14:00] which of course is, you know, probably not always true,

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm, mm-hmm. Right. And yeah, so we learn like the definition of things, which is why Bud Hassett is undefinable or inexpressible or untranslatable. You know, we like our concepts, you know, and this has gone, like you were saying, like when it comes to arrows, which is like, you know, the. Some would say like, the more desiring or, you know, lusting, not necessarily in a negative way, but like that kind of vigorous love and friend.

And then phileo is defined as, you know, brotherly love or friendship. And then air or agape is like this, heavenly lovers, right? So we're always looking for the definitions, but, uh, partly what I was hearing is that if it's really a, a verbal language, verbal kind of expression, then it's. Than it is known by the doing, which is why we need the flesh to dwell among us.

Right? Or we need, um, the word to dwell among

Michael Card: Exactly, and so you, you don't understand, you know, any of those words love, or it's certainly not hesed. You don't understand hesed until you [00:15:00] see somebody do it, and then you go. That's it. So you see, uh, I've got a picture, uh, uh, in my, uh, study. There was a, a, there were a group of, uh, uh, white supremacists that were, um, you know, protesting or, or, or, or doing something.

And, and there, there was another couple, a few white people that were protesting the white supremacists, well, one of the white supremacists. You know, socks. A guy in the John, he's beating him up. Well, there's a black lady who walks by who basically, you've probably seen this, it was in like in the New York Times.

It was very picture, but there's this black lady who falls down over one of the white supremacists. She's protecting him. Okay? So I say. He, he has no right to expect anything from her except that maybe she should join in and beating him up. But she falls on the, the, the, the KKK guy basically, and she's protecting him.

That's Hesed. See, that's, [00:16:00] hes, yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: And in a sense, I mean, that's a, that's the call to discipleship that Jesus invites us to is to love our neighbors. And really, that's what Jesus did for us,

Michael Card: Right.

Geoff Holsclaw: he falls on us even though we deserve punishment, the consequences of our sins, but rather he takes that so that we can live.

Michael Card: Love Loving your enemies is basically, hes an act of Hess. They know they shouldn't expect anything from you, and you give them everything. And that's what Jesus calls us to do. Yep. Yep.

Geoff Holsclaw: you talk a little bit

Michael Card: Bad news. I've got good news and bad news. This is what Hassett means is bad news is you, you and I are supposed to do it.

And it, and it will cost you everything.

The Call to Discipleship and Hesed

Geoff Holsclaw: well, let's talk a little bit more about that, uh, this sense of discipleship, um, or following Jesus. You know, people use all sorts of different, uh, kind of words for it, but, um, how do you see that understanding this word kind of more fully leads. To growth or spirituality? [00:17:00] Like what do you, what do you think we need more of?

Michael Card: Well, I, I think the, the essence, the heart of, of being a follower of Jesus is responding. I. Uh, to, you know, to, to him. I mean, he takes up his cross and then what does he say? We gotta do, we gotta take up our cross. We're, we're, we're always responding to, to the, to, to his image, to his incarnation, to his words, to everything of, I mean, he's the absolute center of, of everything.

And, uh, and so I, I think the big motivation for doing, he isn't reading, reading a book about it, and. Quoting, whoever you know, said whatever about it. Uh, the, the appropriate response is to imitate Jesus in, in his ed. So you love people who are unlovable. You give you, you know, you give without expecting anything in return.

That's what Jesus says, right? You give. You don't give to get back. You give, you know, [00:18:00] uh, and you give everything. And, um, I, I think again, he's, he's, he's always gonna be the paradigm. He's always gonna be the def his life is the definition of it. And, uh, and the, and the other good news is he gives us the Holy Spirit, which it, which enables us.

Enables us to do this in the first place. I think that's the other thing that's important to understand. Okay. You don't read a book about Hesed and think kind of, I'm gonna, you know, you know, uh, get, get up my steam and I'm gonna go out there and do hesed you what you do. You realize there's no way I can love like this.

I mean, the best, the best love I have is, is kind of a pale copy of, you know, some sort of worldly whatever, but then you realize. Jesus dwells in his spirit, dwells in me, and he enables me to do He And I can, I can, uh, I can't think of any examples right now, but I can tell you there have been occasions since I've been meditating on this word when, [00:19:00] uh, and there, there they're fleeting and they're small and I'm by no means an exemplar of anything.

But there have been some times when I've actually done tested, um. And, and not, not by, by the spirit. I've done this. And you stop and you go, wow, this is, this is, this is real. This isn't just, I don't know, but it is something the spirit enables you to do. You don't do it because you, you read some book about it.

I wish it was that.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, and that goes back to kind of our current cultural kind of perspective, is if I can just learn something, then I, I'll be able to do it. And what you're saying is like, well you, you learn how to do it by doing it, right?

Michael Card: learn how to do it by being empowered, by being enabled to do it. Yeah. Outside of yourself

Geoff Holsclaw: Yes. Yeah. Not by your own power, for sure.

Michael Card: not by your own. And, but it, which is not to say, it's still not important for us to read scripture and see how the world you. And, [00:20:00] and that kind of thing. Um, but um, yeah.

Understanding Hesed Through Jesus' Life

Geoff Holsclaw: But it, well, so we can go two different directions. 'cause part of, uh, part of the reason why we have the stories of Jesus, you know, the gospels is so that you can see this kind of hesset in action. Uh, so you're not just reading about it. Like, you know, 'cause we could read, uh, first Corinth or second Corinthians what.

13, whatever that love chapter is, right? Love is conah, love is great, right? So those are all definitions, but you see love in action in Jesus' life. Um, so I'd love to talk more about that. But then now that we've talked about, I. What is Hesed? I know people do struggle, like with feeling like God is distant or isn't, you know, um, they're not experienced God or understanding how God's at work in their life.

The Role of Lament in Experiencing God's Hesed

Geoff Holsclaw: And you were talking about the, the Psalms of Lament and how that hinge is hesed. Could, maybe we go back there now that maybe we've talked about it and like, how is it that. This idea of god's, you know, we'd say unmerited favor grace, loving and kindness, um, giving everything to us [00:21:00] perspective, even though we deserve nothing.

How does that shift, how does that become, that hinge in some of those, um, uh, Psalms?

Michael Card: Well, I think what happens is you lament, you, lament you. And this happens in your life too. Um, and at at one point you sort of exhaust yourself against, against God, like a wave, you know, on a, the sea or something against the rocks. At one point you exhaust yourself. And in that. In that moment of, I, I guess you're finally out of, you run out of words.

You run out of, um, you know, whatever it is that's driving your lament sorrow, and, um, and God meets you at, at that point and you realize, okay, this, this is real. This is really real. 

Personal Stories of Lament and God's Presence

Michael Card: I, I just told you, uh, our pastor's just, uh, gotten a, a, a diagnosis of glioblastoma, which [00:22:00] is a horrible brain tumor. And, uh, we had a, we had a, a prayer service for him, and, and we did that.

We lamented, we were so, I mean, we have such a wonderful pastor. He's such a loving guy. He'll stop in the middle of sermons and say, I'm sorry. I've just gotta tell you guys how much I love you. He's that kind of a guy. Uh, and it was, you know, at one point after we're, you know, weeping and we're, we're laying our hands on him and whole, the whole church.

There's only about 20 people in my church anyway. But anyway, so we're praying for him. But there, there was a moment when then it, it transitioned. It's like we, we got to the end of, these are all the tears we have. This is all the sorrow that we have. We've expressed this to you, Lord. Now what? And at that, at that point.

I don't know the language. God shows up or you, you realize that He, he does hear your prayer. He may not answer it exactly the way you, he, he's always gonna give you what you should have asked for. That's what I say. [00:23:00] And you realize that, and you realize that, do I have a right to expect nothing from him?

He's going to give me everything. He's, he's always gonna give me what I should have asked for. And uh, and, and so then it becomes worship. I. Worth ship. Worship is worth ship. It's celebrating the worth of God. And I think Hesed is one of those, perhaps the key, the heart of the thing that, that makes him so worthy.

He's worthy of our praise, uh, because it has nothing to do with us, nothing to do with what we've done. He just keeps on loving us. And b, Brendan Manning used to say he loves us as if, as if there was only one of us to love. It's, how can you not respond to that?

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah, yeah.

Michael Card: And that's what Hess has. That's the heart of Hess right there. You know, I love you. God says, I love you so much. I'd rather die than live without you. That's Hess. That's Hess.

Geoff Holsclaw: right. It changes us when we soak in it, when we [00:24:00] receive it, when we stop resisting it and trying to earn it.

Michael Card: it's got, yeah, it's got to or, yeah, it's got to.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, for sure. 

The Importance of Expressing Emotions to God

Geoff Holsclaw: And so in those, uh, laments or those difficulties, I just want people to remember like ex God is big enough to and able to handle all those complex emotions and even those kind of cries of doubt and disappointment.

Michael Card: An anger, anger, anger in Psalms, you, uh, I would say it this way. You are free to say to God anything you need to say. He can take it. I mean, if you're angry, if you feel like he's absent, if you feel like he has, has, just don't give up on the conversation. 'cause he can take it. And then when you kinda, when you, when you, when you get to the end of that lament or that grief or that anger, 'cause again there's some angry, there's some angry psalms and you go, how in the world did that get in there?

Uh uh, David will say at the moment, when I needed you the most, [00:25:00] that's when you were the farthest from helping me. David says that to God, you think God should have zapped him with a lightning bolt, but God absorbs this because he is the God ed, and, and you exhaust yourself and then you realize, you know what?

And, and then David will say, I've said things I shouldn't have said, but there's still things he needed to say. And I think that's what's, that's so, that's so important.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Michael Card: you need to say to God, you can say to God.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. I remember when I was in seminary, uh, visiting, uh, you know, preacher was coming in for chapel and he said something like, you should never be angry with God. And I immediately was like. Uh, you must not have read the s the Psalms recently 'cause a lot of them are angry at God. Right. But they're doing something and, and, and that anger is within this context of hesed that people have experienced.

And so the, the speakers know that they can bring that to [00:26:00] God because God is, is gonna do something in them and in the world in the midst of it.

Michael Card: the, the stupidest thing in the world is to try to hide something from somebody who knows everything.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, that's

Michael Card: if you're angry, he knows you're angry. So I think it's, it's like God invites you, you know, exhaust your anger on me. You know, it, it, he's not just a, a person out there. I mean, this is, this is the, the, you know. The, this is the one who spoke the world into existence. Uh, and he, he wants to be in relationship with us. And part of being in relationship with flawed human beings is that we don't understand, and sometimes in our lack of understanding, we get mad. We, we get from him what we think we should get. And that's, that's usually, or that has to do, I think sometimes we just don't trust them like we should.

So if the, if the cure for the cancer doesn't come immediately or whatever, [00:27:00] the, the spouse walks away. I mean, what the child, my sister lost two children, uh, and my brother lost one. And my family, we've lost three children. And I mean, that were born, that were born full term, lived a year or two and died.

And you talk about anger being angry at God. Not standing. I, I, you know, and there I still don't understand it. Uh, all I can say is the death impregnated world. And the, the, the, the best I can do is to say Jesus entered into that death impregnated world for me

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Michael Card: because he's, he, because he's, he's has it incarnate.

So when I look at those, sorry, I'm crying. When, um, I look at that, that sort of hurtful, you know, especially the death of a child.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

Michael Card: I, I, I can't give you an answer to that, and, and I'm very suspicious of people who, who formulate answers to that. But what I, what I do can, [00:28:00] what I, what I can say with confidence is, well, God lost his son.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Michael Card: Jesus entered into this death impregnated world for us, and um, and that's why he's our great high priest. He's suffered everything we've suffered.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, I just like, I hear that emotion and love in you and I know that that is like a witness of God's has said growing in you and in others, and I just think like. Especially that, you know, 'cause it, we call this the Attachment to God podcast and it does come from like the science of attachment, which is how parents basically give everything to their new child who, you know, who has done nothing for them.

Right. Uh, and, and then how. That kind of works itself out through a whole lifetime. But like your passion and, and passion and the sense of like, Jesus's passion, weak and passion for the, the, the, the emotions of, you know, having lived and loved and lost, you [00:29:00] know, children is like you said, like that's what that's like.

That is God's passion. That's, you know, for us and for his world, you know, he and he became incarnate and I love that term. You said the death incarnate, or death, what'd you say? Death, uh,

Michael Card: Death impregnated.

Geoff Holsclaw: Death impregnated

Michael Card: William Lang. That's from mentor. My mentor who died of multiple myeloma when he was only 68 years old. Bill would say, this is a death impregnated world. Are, I mean, are you surprised I got cancer? This is a death impregnated world. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Right. Right. And asking all the why questions and seeking the definitions for that only get us so far, but entering into the verb of hesed of God saying, uh, yes, there's pain, but I have a solution. I'm bringing the cure, I'm bringing the love. Um, brings hope for us.

Michael Card: and my, and, and my solution is me, is giving myself, you know, he's, he doesn't, [00:30:00] he doesn't he? Um, see who was it? There's a really good quote there. I can't remember it anyway, but it has to do with the fact that he doesn't always answer our questions, but he always gives us himself because having him the answer,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. That's where for us, for my wife and I, this, you know, like Emmanuel, God with us is like. That's the key.

Michael Card: yes,

Geoff Holsclaw: You take Hesed and Emmanuel, like that's, that's the whole biblical story there.

Michael Card: absolutely. Absolutely.

Jesus' Life and Teachings: A Deeper Look

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I know that, um, since you wrote this book about, you know, a good seven, eight years ago, you've been working on stuff with Jesus.

Could you just kind of tell us some of the projects you're also working on right now?

Michael Card: Well, I had two, uh, here's my new word tic here, and I use a, a, a little word that everyone can understand when you can use a big word that no one understands. I was there there. Chi a tic moment is a moment that's full of meaning. Which is a [00:31:00] pretty cool idea. So I had two tic moments and they, they were both, uh, they both happened in, in Jerusalem.

Um, the first one was, um, uh, I was talking to a, a rabbinic student. He is not a rabbi yet, but I was talking to a rabbinic student and I was trying to impress him with how kosher and how observant what a wonderfully observant Jew Jesus is, was talk about Jesus is and was because he is. I said, I said, you know, and the, the, the example is that, uh, he would, uh, he would go to the three, uh, they're called the Shala game, the three big festivals, Pentecost, Tabernacles, and, uh, Passover.

Um, the, the law says you only have to go to Jerusalem if you live within 25 miles. Okay. Jesus lives a hundred miles away. But with a couple of examples, there's a couple of times, apparently he doesn't go to Passover, but PR pretty, we're [00:32:00] pretty certain from the gospel that Jesus makes that trip. And so I'm impressing this rabbinic student with Jesus was so kosher, even though he lived a hundred miles away, he would walk all the way to Jerusalem from Galilee to go to the festival.

So you should be impressed in how kosher Jesus is. And this rabbi looks at me and goes, yeah, but what does that mean? I.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Michael Card: Whatcha talking about? He said, well, that's a fact, but what does the fact mean? I said, well, you know, why don't you tell me? He said, he, he said, it means Jesus spends three months out of every year walking back and forth to Jerusalem.

Geoff Holsclaw: Wow.

Michael Card: I know. Wow. Is that completely blew my mind. And so what what happened was I realized I knew all these facts and these details about Jesus, but I didn't know what they meant. And so that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to look at the, the languages he speaks and the, I mean, every detail that can, you know, what does it mean that he was from Galilee, you know, [00:33:00] Galilean Judaism as opposed to, you know, Jerusalem, uh, ju Judean Judaism.

There's, there's all kinds of fascinating details and, uh, and that's, that's what I'm trying to do is, is, uh. You know, you know, like the, the, I think the, the book is, I don't think I know the book is divided into, uh, his world. Um, and, um, so the people in his world and the places in his world, his heart, uh, which is basically the heart of his teaching, uh, and in his mind, which is mostly parables to teaching on the parables.

So it's, but it's every detail, not just every detail, but what does every detail mean? So that's what I'm, yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna mull on that three months a year, walking back and forth to Jerusalem.

Michael Card: about that

Geoff Holsclaw: yeah.

Michael Card: three months, I mean, 10 days down, 10 days there, and 10 days back. So he sends three months outta every year. And, uh, and I, I thought, well, what other facts [00:34:00] about his life had these huge implications? Uh, and one of them I'm still working on it was that we said before. Jesus thinks in verbs 'cause he thinks in Hebrew era is, is ma.

He speaks three languages in, in his humanity. I know in his divinity he can speak all languages, but in his humanity would've, he would've spoken three. Languages and he would've thought in Hebrew and what does that mean? But what does that mean? And uh, and that, that's, that's where the, the, the example when he says that the kingdom of God is here, what he means is that God has begun to reign 'cause he thinks it's verbs and best example I've come up with yet.

So I'm still working on that one.

Geoff Holsclaw: I love it and, uh, that God reigns means God's hesset is flowing as it should be.

Michael Card: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what does it even mean? The kingdom's here? I don't, I don't, I get that. But if, if his, the, if the key of his message was God has begun to reign, I'm like, okay, I get that. And, and I'm to, [00:35:00] I'm, I'm totally into celebrating that God has begun to reign. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: Amen. Well, it sounds like you're quite busy and productive even in your, uh, supposed retirement. I know my dad always said, Christians don't retire. They just get different, like, you know, different duties. Uh, but what, what can you just tell people what you're up to and how people can kind of follow your work and stay in touch?

Current Projects and Reflections

Michael Card: well, I'm, uh, I live in a tiny little, um, uh, air, uh, tiny little town called Ferndale, Tennessee, which is just, um, I mean, it's, there's not even a town, it's just an area. There's no, we have no where or anything like that.

Geoff Holsclaw: are you a township or something like that? You're just like a, you're just like a zip code,

Michael Card: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so, uh, you know, so we, my, my wife is a flower. She has a flower farm. So we we're kind of developing that. I'm, I'm her, uh. I have doing, I wrote a book on slavery, but I have this whole new understanding of slavery now. Um, [00:36:00] but I, I teach Wednesday night bible study at my church, at this sweet little church.

I go to Ferndale church and, uh, I have two elderly neighbors that I take care of. So my, my li and I work, I'm trying to write this book. So, uh, I say I've retired, but I'm still, um, I'm still plenty busy. I,

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

Michael Card: I mean, I'm lazy enough I could retire and spend the rest of my life sitting on the couch looking at tv.

But that's like you said, that's that, uh, that's not what we're created to do.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, uh, for all you listeners, you can find all of Michael Card's, music on Spotify or iTunes or wherever you find music. He's putting out, um, recently, uh, just reflections on gospels, but going all, all the way back, almost 30 years, 40 years of, uh, your career now.

Michael Card: 81 was the first record. Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: 81.

Michael Card: yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, okay. Exit.

Michael Card: And, and get this, they, they just, uh, they just threw away 6,000 of my [00:37:00] CDs. That's old technology, right. We don't use that anymore. And the, the companies, they said we still have 400 boxes of them,

Geoff Holsclaw: oh

Michael Card: but we had 6,000. We just needed the space for something, you know, something else.

And yeah. So that, that was an odd feeling to hear that they just thrown away 6,000 of your C CDs.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, everybody can stream your music and you know, the young kids are going back to vinyl. So you got the digital streaming and then you got the vinyl.

Michael Card: I don't even have a CD player in my car. So that those days are over.

Geoff Holsclaw: have one in our whole house, I don't

Michael Card: Yeah, those, those days are over.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. 

Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

Geoff Holsclaw: Well thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And when that book gets finished, I'll wanna have you back on again. We can talk about it some more.

Michael Card: Definitely. I would love to do that.

Geoff Holsclaw: Great. Well thank you so much and, uh, until next time.

Michael Card: God bless. [00:38:00]