Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

107 The Way of Sorrows as a New Evangelism (for Easter Week) (with Andrew Root)

• Season 7 • Episode 107

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This Holy Week, as Jesus, "the man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief" (Is. 53:3), walks toward the cross, we ask what it might be to proclaim this as good news. 

An older evangelism might ask, Where will you go when you die? But in our age of anxiety and despair, maybe we need to shift to: What do you do with your sorrow as you live?  That Jesus walks with us in our sorrows is really good news. 

That's what we are talking about today with Dr. Andrew Root. He is the Carrie Olson Baalson professor of youth and family ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations.  And most recently has written about Evangelism in an Age of Despair: Hope Beyond the Failed Promise of Happiness.

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Introduction to Modern Evangelism

Geoff Holsclaw: You might think of older evangelism as asking the question, where will you go when you die? But maybe we need to shift to a different question, like, what do you do with your sorrows as you live? This is the Attach To God podcast. I'm Geoff Holsclaw, and we're seeking a neuroscience informed Spiritual formation.

As always, we are produced by. 

Guest Introduction: Dr. Andrew Root

Geoff Holsclaw: Embodied faith today we have with us again and Dr. Andrew Root, who is the Carrie Olson. Oh, is it Balson

Andrew Root: Yeah, you got it.

Geoff Holsclaw: Did I say that? The Carrie Olson Balson, professor of family or Youth and Family Ministries at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He writes and researches in a broad, uh, all sorts of different, uh, areas, which is amazing.

Discussing 'Evangelism in an Age of Despair'

Geoff Holsclaw: And most [00:01:00] recently he just wrote the book, evangelism in an Age of Despair. And I just want to talk a little bit about that age of despair and what we do with sorrows. You kind of make. Um, I'll first of all, thank you for being on again. I really

Andrew Root: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be back.

Geoff Holsclaw: Um, I know you've had a lot of interviews, you know about, well, should we still evangelize?

What does that really look like? I'm all for evangelism, uh, but, um, I. You kind of get at this. Well, well, let's just start with the title. Uh, and I know maybe you didn't come up with that title, but the Evangelism in an Age of Despair, and then the subtitle is Hope Beyond the Failed Promises of Happiness.

Can you just talk about that? Maybe that subtitle, the Failed Promises of Happiness, and we can kind of get into, um, these other topics.

Andrew Root: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, it is a pretty clickbait title I think, and, uh, I didn't come up with it, so I have to give, uh, Jeremy Wells credit at, at baker for, for titling the book. But I mean, these are themes that. Are are there in the book. So I'm responsible for it [00:02:00] regardless if I didn't have the creative, uh, genius to put it all together.

Um. But yeah, I mean, I mean obviously evangelism is the, the first word in this title before we even get to the subtitle. And in some ways this is most definitely a book about evangelism. 

The Theology of Consolation

Andrew Root: I'd be definitely lying if I said it wasn't, but another, another way it, it, I think the ground that I'm trying to break in this book is really more a theology of consolation than evangelism, you know?

So it's like seeing evangelism as a practice, a ministry through. Kind of theology of consolation that really makes the assertion that we have been living in, uh, well, the first three decades of the 21st century have been quite sad decades, you know, that we're living in sad times. I think, uh, in that sadness, sometimes it gets manifest in outrage and anger and in things like that.

But these have not been easy decades, I think. And one of the reasons for that gets to the subtitle is that, uh, I think we are just. 

Happiness vs. Sadness in Modern Times

Andrew Root: So utterly kind of hell bent on [00:03:00] being happy that it's making us miserable. Um, you know, that we just, that we have so doubled down and committed that the point of life is to be happy.

That, uh, it opens up not only the possibility of, of sadness, but it does something I think more devious, which it makes us quite afraid of being sad and thinking that sadness is a corrupting force that destroys happiness as opposed to sadness being an emotion that. In many ways comes with happiness and that, uh, sadness itself can have its own beauty within it, and there can be a message inside of it.

Um, but we feel like sadness. I think because we see happiness as, as the gauge that we've, we've made it towards self-fulfillment, then we see sadness as the sign that we haven't. Gotten our own self-fulfillment that we haven't achieved. Self-fulfillment. So we're scared. Death of, of sadness, and yet we're in a time, uh, where overwhelmingly I think people are lonely, anxious, depressed, um, and [00:04:00] sad.

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, we've never sought happiness more than right now, and it seems like we've never had worse mental health than right now, at least in the United States. And so what is that kind of connection and, and when you were talking throughout your book, it really kind of gave words to something that I think many of us have already been feeling.

I guess on the one hand I do kind of approach like a, um, evangelism or whatever you wanna call it. 

The Role of Religion in Mental Health

Geoff Holsclaw: I do kind of take the tack at this point of saying like, you know, the gospel's the best thing for your mental health. Uh, you know, all sorts of psychological sciences say that religious practice, not just being spiritual, but actually being religious in that old term that sometimes people get, uh, mad at, is really good for you.

It's a communal life. It's a structured life, gives you meaning and purpose that are beyond kind of your own individual life. Um, right. So. So that's true on the one hand, right? But that's just kind of maybe secular science that's like, and and there's all sorts of actually atheists now who are kind of turning back to religion as kind of a [00:05:00] social good that has been lost or something like that.

But you're not making that argument for evangelism at all. You're kind of almost going the other direction, which is fine 'cause I don't like, these things don't have to be. Opposed to each other. But I do, I I really like that kind of question. And I, and you probably said it somewhere, uh, I just summarized it at the top, is that like, you know, is a, is evangelism not just like how to be saved, but it's really a different way of handling sorrow, um, and sadness.

And so I kind of, and you and throughout the book you kind of. 

Self vs. Soul: A Deeper Dive

Geoff Holsclaw: Make this distinction between a self and a soul. Could you kind of unpack that a little bit about the happiest hunters, as you call them, are trying to fortify the self,

Andrew Root: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: we, you know, in the church, we need to recover and kind of advocate on behalf of the soul.

We're all about saving souls. Let's go Andrew.

Andrew Root: Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, really that piece too, and Yeah. You know, I can, I can almost hear people listening to this through the time space continuum, being uncomfortable with a duality between [00:06:00] self and soul, you know, and, uh, and I, and I'm not really trying to work a, a duality here. Like the body doesn't matter, but the soul does, or, or some kind of, I don't know, some kind of popular, um, uh, you know, old, old, uh, kind of views of Christianity or something like that.

Um. Though I think we should go older. And if we go older within the tradition there, there is a kind of sense of what it means to be both a self as a, as a kind of social construction, I think. And then what it also means to be a soul and what, and I worked that duality. It has a kind of unity but a duality through blaze Pascal in this book.

Pascal's Philosophy and Its Relevance

Andrew Root: So, um, you know, the very famous philosopher and polymath, the inventor of, uh. Of probability theory and the calculator, uh, blaze Pascal may be one of the greatest minds that Europe has ever created. Pascal's real take was, um, that the creator of the self, I mean one of the main intellectuals, creators of the self is this guy named Michelle Dimont.

And Monte's Point is. You should seek [00:07:00] yourself fulfillment that a fulfilled life no longer is responding to or being in the court with the king or responding to the precepts of the church. That what really makes one, I. Um, lived a fulfilled life is to be happy and to be a self who goes to their chateau and lives contently, um, and can kind of probe their own mind and enjoy gardening when they garden, enjoy sleeping.

When they're sleeping. There's this kind of nonchalant contentment. Um, and that's what selfs are for. To find that kind of fulfillment and the pushback 200 years after Monta by Pascal was that that's not possible. It's just not possible. It's not possible to have this kind of contentment that, I mean, maybe Monta achieved it, but that's a very unique reality.

But most of us all, and I think Pascal thinks all of us cannot, we can't achieve this kind of contentment and we ch we can achieve this [00:08:00] contentment 'cause we're not just selves. We're not just selves who need to be happy, we're also souls and as souls, there is a sense within us that there's a restlessness that can't be met, that there, there's a need for something outside of us, um, to complete us in some way.

To save us. We would would say in some way that there's some kind of, um, yearning that, that we can't manifest or solve within ourself, that our ourself cannot solve that. And so. Uh, Paal thinks that we then, um, we need, we need to encounter this fire of a God who comes to us, um, from outside of us. But he thinks the only resources we have to do that is not.

Our intellect. It is not reason. I mean the, the great master of reason Pascal actually thinks you can't reason yourself into this. The only way into it is a kind of surrender through your sorrow that if you admit that you are discontent, that [00:09:00] you cannot make yourself happy. If you'll allow yourself to tumble into your sadness, Pascal's wagers, that you're gonna find a great presence there.

That you're gonna find the very ministering God of Israel who encounters, um, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and he's going to come and, and minister to you, minister to you, and, and renew you. So the soul is for, for Pascal, at least as I work in this, in this argument, this soul is this reality. This, this need to reach for something transcendent, something outside, that means that a kind of satisfied contentment.

Cannot be accomplished within ourselves. You know, if you, if you just learn how to garden really well and sleep really well, and have a, and have your your sleep number, figure it out just perfectly, then, then you're gonna be happy and content and you're gonna be okay. And yet, part of my point is our, our unhappiness is that people do all this stuff and try to hack all these things and still feel a, a deep baseline sense of discontent [00:10:00] and are kind of alone on how to make sense out out of that reality.

Geoff Holsclaw: mm-hmm. So, okay, so you're against health and wellness culture. You're against all life hacking and all optimization schemes. So no wonder you're not rich and famous like all these other people

Andrew Root: I, well,

Geoff Holsclaw: you're famous. You know, I don't know if

Andrew Root: no, no, I, I'm neither rich nor famous.

Geoff Holsclaw: so, but, but in, but in a sense, I know I was saying that in Jes, but, uh. That is kind of the drift, right? Like we can't just life hack our way into an optimal living with just the right work life balance, with just the right kind of, uh, dietary, um, kind of configuration to fit our genetic codes. If we just figure that all out, right, we could just, and then we'd be happy.

And content, um, you're saying following Pascal and kind of the, the Christian tradition, right? That there's this deeper restlessness that can't be addressed, uh, in the human condition, so, so. I'm rephrasing the, the old [00:11:00] Augustinian kind of, uh, question of, uh, we are restless until we find our rest in God.

But in one sense, are you saying like, after the Enlightenment or the Renaissance or wherever you kind of, wherever you kind of put that time, but in the Enlightenment is we become a people who are restless until we become, uh, until we rest in our own self-fulfillment. Uh, and so it's us who have to kind of find that salvation in kind of some sort of consumption or kind of a curated life.

Andrew Root: Yeah, that's I.

Geoff Holsclaw: Pascal was re uh, rebelling against?

Andrew Root: Yeah, that's exactly what Pascal thought. You, it couldn't, couldn't happen. And, you know, he was, he was reading this kind of recovery of Augustine that was happening at the same time and, and found it to be quite true and quite true within himself. And the interesting thing is, Pascal doesn't necessarily go to proof text that he goes to gambling.

You know, he's a, he's a. Before he has his conversion experience. He's a major gambler at these Parisian uh, salons, and he realizes that when you gamble, you tell yourself if you just win this time, you'll be [00:12:00] self-fulfilled. You'll be content. If you just win this hand, you'll be able to pay the car off.

You'll be able to relax, you'll be able to fly to Hawaii and just really work on meditation and his. He's had, he had the experience of winning at the gambler stable, and he realized that he goes away assured in his self-fulfillment and contentment, and yet it didn't take but 15 minutes till he starts feeling the agitation of a discontent with within him that always brought him back to the table to, to gamble and play the ponies again.

Geoff Holsclaw: So then if we're not trying to just optimize our life, uh, or thrill seeking or adventures or collecting memories, uh, what is. What does this turn towards? Sorrow or sadness? Why does, why does Pascal go that direction and how is that a consolation for us? Doesn't that just make us feel worse?

Andrew Root: Well, I think Pascal's point isn't that we should turn towards it. It's that you don't have a choice. 

The Inevitability of Sorrow

Andrew Root: [00:13:00] That, that, that sorrow is part of the human condition. And, um, needing to say goodbye and grieve is, is, is part of the human condition. And so one of the, one of the books and conversations that, that kind of, uh, ignited this project within me, there are a few, but one was reading this book called The Wellness Gospel by this New York Times.

Um. Author who had kind of written for the New York Times on wellness culture and she comes to be quite disgruntled with wellness culture. And um, and it starts, the book starts in a very captivating way where she says like she was all in, she was a fully committed wellness culture person, and then her father died and there was nothing like, there was just.

There was nothing inherent within wellness culture that could help her bear this grief, and that she felt utterly alone. Like for all the cleanses and all, even the meditation apps and all that stuff, which she wasn't actually down on. She thought, yeah, it had, [00:14:00] it had value, it, it had psychological value, it it helped.

But at the end, when a great sorrow came upon her life, when her father died. She said she found herself. She was, she grew up Jewish. She said she found herself yearning for these, these ancient Christian or these ancient religious practices where someone would come and, and sit with her and actually be with her and, and, um, that was gone.

And so I think this is, this is part of my point is that, uh, the goal isn't to glorify sorrow or to say like, let's, let's rebrand sorrow as a good thing. It, it's, the reality of it is, is that we're headed towards it, like there that this. We have to say goodbye in this human life, that there are, uh, great sorrows before us, and yet we live in a cultural moment where we almost have broadly, we don't have anyone to be with us in those moments.

And, and, and our society is, is kind of abandoned. Um, any kind of structures or any kind of communities that can walk with us in that. And maybe this is. 

The Church's Role in Consolation

Andrew Root: A big calling of the church and of, [00:15:00] of the Christian now is to join people in their sorrow. And, and my point isn't to use that as an instrument for evangelism, but it becomes evangelistic, um, in simply doing it and simply bearing that sorrow with people.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, it seems like, so I'm just thinking right now that like the old. It seems like. Pascal is trying to tell the truth about the human condition, uh, in the deepest kind of way. And that the, the older kind of evangelism, you know, I was raised fundamentalist, you know, so it's like, do you know where you're gonna go when you, when you die?

Uh, and the truth being proclaimed there as the setup for the gospel, right, is something like, well, your sins, you know, the wages of sin is death, you know? Um, right. But. But what I think you're suggesting is, is kind of the same thing, like, well, we still need to tell the truth, but what are we telling the truth about?

We're telling the truth that like life is hard. Uh, there are things that you know. Make us sad and that we should actually, uh, admit those and look at 'em. And then there's kind of a [00:16:00] consolation, or I guess the evangelistic moment then comes after that truthful moment of life is sorrowful and then the gospel is, and you know, the man of Sorrows walks with us in the midst of those things.

We are, just so everybody knows, we are recording this during holy week, although it won't. Air, but this is like right in the middle of Holy Week, you know, where Jesus comes to Jerusalem and he challenges, but he also teaches, and then ultimately he dies, you know, for our sin and suffering. So, um, how does then the man of Sorrows become a gospel, like in this moment?

Like, how does, how does that happen?

Andrew Root: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think this is where in, in one play, in in, in one way, the. Pascal doesn't go far enough. So Pascal does think that if we, if we lean into our sorrows, his wagers, that we're going to meet a great presence there. Um. But Pascal kind of has this assumption you could do that by yourself, you know?

And I don't think that's possible. I think you actually need a community to walk into your sorrows. But I think the call of evangelism [00:17:00] is much more, I mean, like you, I had these experiences of, of evangelism, both, you know, being high school kid told to do it, and in some ways having it done to you, which is like the four spiritual laws.

Like do you propositionally hold these four points? And then if you can say, you know, if you can get to the end of the. Uh, end of this and pray the prayer, then you've been evangelized. Um, but I think really within even the, the, the Christian tradition, what evangelism is, is the invitation to become a pilgrim, to walk a path.

Um, and that path is a path of sorrows. You know, it is a path of saying goodbye. And so in the medieval period when a pilgrim would go on pilgrimage. They would give a will and testament 'cause they weren't sure they were ever, ever gonna be back. And um, and so it was a deep sense of, of walking towards God.

Um, but also walking into your, your sorrows of saying goodbye. And I think what the church does in this time is invite [00:18:00] people onto a pilgrimage, which is to say their mu there, there's something deeper going on. Um. Within your sorrow there, there, your story has significance and we wanna walk it with you.

And it does really start by the confession of, of your broken heartedness in, in walking into that. And not because that's any kind of trick, to win leverage, um, over and against people. It's because the way this God reveals God self, particularly in the person of Jesus Christ, is to, to enter into sorrow and brokenness and suffering.

And as you said, to be the man of sorrows who promises us to be with that promises to be with and for us in, in those moments. So at the core, evangelism is really, uh, about helping people hear the call of Jesus Christ to follow and where Jesus Christ is at work. I wanna make this claim really ultimately through Luther's theology of the Cross, is that God is, is present revealing [00:19:00] God's self.

Beckoning a call to us in our places of loss and brokenness and and suffering.

Geoff Holsclaw: Mm, well. I just changed my mind. We're, we're gonna release this episode this week so it lands during Holy Week, so everyone's gonna be like, no, it's out right now. Why Geoff say that? 

The Theology of the Cross

Geoff Holsclaw: Um, well, why don't we talk about the theology of the cross, uh, for people who don't know, what is the theology of Cross of the Cross as Luther kind of understood it, and um, how is it kind of counter pose to a theology of glory?

And in your book, you kind of give the pre-history of all that, which I thought was great, but let's just go with like the kind of typical Lutheran, uh, kind of perspective there.

Andrew Root: yeah. Well, I mean, in the, in the typical Lutheran perspective is contested in some ways too. 'cause the, the question is, the theology of the cross is where Luther wants to start. So he wants to say, um. God, we should contemplate the God that reveals God's self. The God we can know is found first and foremost in Jesus Christ.

Crucified. I mean, [00:20:00] it's very Pauline in that sense, where Paul says, I choose to only Christ in, in him crucified. So for Luther, the cross, this is the contested part with an even the Lutheran, uh, the Lutheran world is the theology of the cross is of course, IM pardon? Atonement theory. I mean, it is talking about how salvation occurs.

But first and foremost, I, I hold that the theology of the cross is, uh, what we might call a hermeneutic for who God is and how God acts, and that God becomes present first and foremost in these moments, not of triumph. Not of self-fulfillment, but God becomes present first and foremost in moments of brokenness, in moments of sorrow.

Um, that it's in those moments where God becomes near. So Luther says in the Heidelberg Disputation that a, the, as only Luther can say in his, you know, is, is bombastic, polemical way. He says that a theologian of glory calls good evil and evil good. And a theologian of a cross calls a [00:21:00] thing what it is and the thing he's referring to.

Is that the human life is filled with sorrow and brokenness and goodbyes, and that what we need out of theology is not some kind of metaphysical machine. Um, what we ultimately need outta theology is a vision of how this God is a minister, who cares for the broken hearted, who comes near those, um, who are lost, that we need a, a, we need this vision of a God who leaves the 99 for the one.

You know that this is a, a God who. Absurdly almost is, is committed to, um, the outcast and the lonely and the broken hearted. And so if you wanna find this God, um, you have to find this God where this God, uh, chooses to be present. And this God chooses to be present with the broken hearted. This God chooses to be present with all those who, um, are.

Are near a cross or find themselves at the [00:22:00] cross in, in, in moments of loss. So that's at, its at its heart. I think what the theology of the cross is about to look for God there, don't look for God somewhere else.

Geoff Holsclaw: so the call to take up your cross and follow me isn't a call to like, you know, self abrogation or suffering or doing the hardest possible thing ever, but it's, it's, you know. yourself to being where God is at all times and telling the truth about the thing. Saying the what it was it calling a thing, what it

Andrew Root: what it is. Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: So I. I think 'cause sometimes, so back to evangelism, uh, or, or conversion or proselytization, you know, where you're trying to convert someone, right? Is sometimes the criticism is, oh, you know, when people have just had, uh, you know, bad turn in life, uh, a loved one has died, they lost their job, they're at their lowest, and then the, the Christians come and prey on people at their weakest,

Andrew Root: Yeah, sure.

Geoff Holsclaw: and they, they convince 'em of all this nonsense.

Um, and it's this a strong, rational people who can resist that, right? But, but in [00:23:00] one sense it's almost the reverse. It's actually, well, it's the Christians who come across who come, you know, evangelism at that moment is to come alongside someone and to speak truly and say, well this is horrible, this is sad, this is sorrowful.

Um, and there's one who's walked this path with you, right? Um, and that is. If that is good news. And so in that sense, um, it's that weakness and strength as Paul and uh, and others kind of say so. So if you've ever felt bad, like you were taking advantage of someone at their lowest, well that's where God is.

So, you know, if they find God where God is, that shouldn't be so

Andrew Root: Yeah. Yeah. And we, we actually don't honor people's sorrow and suffering if for like, oh, there it is. Now is the time where we can leverage that for something. You know, like I think the theology of the cross makes this claim that God, that the, that the Trinity, I mean this is the way Yergen Moltmann has, has famously worked this theology of the cross, is that sorrow.

Loss grief is part of the inner life of God that God knows those [00:24:00] experiences. So the claim is that those who are up against those experiences of death, loss, grief, brokenness, um, that it's through that reality that they find union with God, that God is with and for them in those moments. And so what we do in evangelism is simply pro.

Proclaim the truth that God is with and for you. We have no religion that can solve these problems, and we don't think, Hey, your life sucks now, but if you take on this religious conception, then you'll be driving a Mercedes in six months. Like that kind of prosperity gospel is really antithetical to the theology of the cross.

The theology of the cross has a kind of lived theology that that says, Hey, that, that Jesus Christ is with and for you when, when things. Seem their darkest. That's where God chooses to be present.

Geoff Holsclaw: So like, uh, prosperity Gospel, would you say it's, um. Like a theology of the self then,

Andrew Root: Yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: the, the. The kind of [00:25:00] gospel of sorrows is for the soul. How would you kind of, 'cause I wanna go kind of go back to that a little bit, not, but how do those two things kind of fit together? Because like, we have the old kind of ancient, um, for those who don't know, kind of like, um, there is a theory in which, um, Christianity takes over this quest of for happiness, the good life, and that, you know, Christian theologians will argue, well, the.

The highest and best happiness is to love God.

Andrew Root: Mm-hmm.

Geoff Holsclaw: so they kind of do put it on this track toward half happiness. And you even talk about this, a little bit about the constellation of what, um, is called the constellations of philosophy. And you kind of counter pose that, juxtapose it to, uh, this guy who is a predecessor to Luther about, and he talks about the constellations of theology.

Could you kind of talk

Andrew Root: yeah, yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: because there's lots of Christian traditions. They're like, yeah, Christianity makes me happy,

Andrew Root: yeah, yeah,

Geoff Holsclaw: and I even argued, and I have argued, you know, that there are these good mental health reasons, but what is this constellations of theology as [00:26:00] opposed

Andrew Root: Yeah.

Geoff Holsclaw: or psychology and mental health professionals.

Andrew Root: Yeah. And, and I do, and I, yeah, and I, to get into that, I mean, I do want to be really clear, like I think that part of the Christian life is joy and, and we could call that happiness, you know, um, but. The depth of joy again, like if we think of happiness as coming from your own self-fulfillment, joy is this incredible gift that you didn't have any control of that is is given to you.

It is gift and it's over. It's an overwhelming sense of joy. Like for instance, when you get the gift that the. Treatment that your, you know, that your, your spouse has been going through for cancer, that the scans have come back clean. Like there's a sense of overwhelming joy that this is, this is gift. And I do think the Christian life is, is a deeply one of joy, but it has to have this kind of.

Dialectical nature of the suffering and the joy, um, they play together. So this is, you know, to to your question about a, a [00:27:00] philosophy of consolation, this was a big question all the way back into the kind of patristic era of the church. It's like, if we are, you know, here we are, you said this is gonna release right before.

You know, Easter. So now being Easter people, you know, not only do we have Good Friday in, in, in those sorrows, but now death has been overcome with resurrection. Um, this is, you know, prolifically, this will happen for all Christians, but you know, has happened in the body of Jesus Christ. So a big question for like the early church fathers was, well, could you grieve when someone died?

Like, could Christian people actually grieve? Or is that a kind of violation of your commitment to the resurrection? And what, what became a significant kind of piece was kind of thinking about, well, what's the, what's the philosophy of consolation and is it appropriate to grieve and is it appropriate to cry when someone dies?

And they said it, it is very much the case. But then there was this book written called The Consolation of Philosophy, um, in the sixth century by a g, by the name of. A bot who was preparing to be killed. [00:28:00] Um, he was a Christian. He was preparing to die, and he writes this story where lady philosophy comes to him and prepares him to to die.

Um, and this was a hu, this was one of the most. Important texts, books of the medieval period. Everyone read it? Everyone thought about the consolation of philosophy. Well, uh, I think what leads up to the theology of the cross is there's this, uh, mystic in the 14th century, the chancellor of the University of, uh, Paris, uh, name, uh, Jean, uh uh, uh au or if you're from Wisconsin, gene Gerson, and, uh, uh, au.

Geoff Holsclaw: I like Gene Gerson.

Andrew Root: Gene Rson,

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. That's how I

Andrew Root: beer, right?

Geoff Holsclaw: the book. That was the name that I heard.

Andrew Root: Right. Well, and if you wanna have a beer, you wanna have a beer with Gene Rson. If you, uh, if you wanna confess your sins, you wanna confess them to, to jean, uh, JSO, uh, but your soul ends up. He ends up kicked out of [00:29:00] France. I mean, uh, there's two popes talk about being in sad times.

It's a hellish period and he ends up, while he's in exile, he writes this, uh. Theology of Constellation. And so instead of philosophy of consolation, he writes a Theology of Constellation. And the big move there was to free theology from a kind of scholastic system that was just kind of trying to work these kind of rational, philosophical categories.

And he was making a claim that theology could actually. Help us cope with our lives. It could help us recognize the presence of God near us. That theology could be an asset in helping point to a God who comes very near to us. And part of my argument here that's a little bit inside baseball that probably most readers don't care about, but.

I do is that I really do think that Luther's Theology of the Cross is essentially a theology of consolation and he's really, he's really drawing from AU to think about how [00:30:00] theology should function for us. That theology shouldn't just be ideas in a university, that it should be a way that we, I. We live and we die, and, and it really is au who says that the Christian life is one of pilgrimage.

And I think one of the most important pieces on that, that's really quite practical is he says, you know, the Christian life as a whole is a life of pilgrimage. So to be evangelized, you have to be invited into this path of pilgrimage. But when you do that, it has to be done at diem. And what he means is it has to be done to God.

Towards God. No one goes on pilgrimage. The difference between, you know, a workout. A pilgrimage is the workout, is the work on the self. The pilgrimage to, to use our soul language again, is to God and about bearing these losses and these yearning that are, are, are deep within. But the other thing that's really fascinating is that at this time in the 14th century, in, in France to say a diem was, uh, also an idiom for goodbye.

So, you know, leaving this podcast and say, uh, a [00:31:00] diem to God, you know, goodbye. Um, and so it is, so what, uh, uh, au is getting at too is that to be a pilgrim is to say goodbye and the Christian life. And why one needs theology is to help us recognize and to help us, give us a compan, give us companionship as we have to say goodbye in life.

And life is all about. A pilgrimage of saying goodbyes. But in these goodbyes, God is present. God is near that. The sorrows of saying goodbye is where God will act and move and and bring life. And this is this, this deep sacramental reality is that like when we find ourselves in the places where God shouldn't be in sorrow and grief and brokenness is the places where God chooses to be and.

The, this, this kind of theology helps us see that, helps us recognize that reality, that what seems like a place God shouldn't be is a place where God is [00:32:00] and where there's a great goodbye, the God, um, of first and second Corinthians, the God of, of, of the foolishness, uh, of the cross becomes present.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. And that's kind of a way of understanding when Jesus, you know, declares I'm the way, the truth in the life, you know, that truth in the life, uh, toward God, uh, is, is journeyed on the way of the cross, uh, the way of sorrows and sufferings, and that he is the one that has gone. Before us already. And that's why we could follow him.

And that's why he is a trustworthy savior, because it, these, this path is not unknown to him. So if I were, I should have, I should have sent this to you beforehand, but if I were to ask you, what's Andrew's four spiritual laws for evangelism in an age of despair, how could we write up this little chick, uh, chick track or

Andrew Root: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's really, that's a great question. Um, I may have to think about this more, but at, at one level, I wanna say [00:33:00] that, uh, the whole book is many ways, a, an anti track. Like it's making a case for an anti track in the sense that, you know, like Charles Taylor appears in this book as he's appeared in a lot of my books.

Um, not quite as, uh, front and center as, as, uh, some of the other ones, but one of the things that. Taylor says, I don't quite deal with in this book, but I think is, is informative in this moment, is part. What can happen to Christianity in our time as it can become ex incarnate. So as opposed to incarnate, it can become ex incarnate.

So instead of being embodied, um, and even thinking of soul as an embodied reality, it can become ex incarnate. And what he really means by that is it can become ossified into propositions that asks you to commit to and dwell in. Um, as opposed to an incarnate embodied reality that invites you on pilgrimage to search, to search for meaning in the midst of all of your deep lived experiences.

So [00:34:00] part of the whole problem with the track is that it runs the danger always of being ex incarnate. And for those of us who even. Had had tracks like the four spiritual laws that did something in our lives. Um, and God used them. God used them. 'cause there's another person standing there who actually manifest the gospel deeper than the track itself.

Like, you know, I'm sure people, there's a few people listening right now who just found a track on the side of the road maybe, and, and, and that, you know, they read it and their eyes were opened. I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, but even that experience, I think if you interrogate it a bit, there are other embodied.

Persons who have proclaimed this, you know, like maybe the track reminds people or takes people back to the fact that their grandmother's been praying for them for decades or something like that. You know? So the, the Christian story from my perspective, especially as it's passed on to others, is always embodied.

It's always lived. So if there was this four spiritual laws, really, or I don't even know if laws would be the right, right phrase, but maybe there's [00:35:00] like four. Pilgrim steps. I mean, it really is just a, a, a deep sense of what it means to say goodbye and what it means to proclaim that in our saying goodbyes, that God is present in the midst of that.

Um, and that we need others, we need a community to do that with. And that there is some kind of meaning. There is some kind of deep encounter in the midst of our moments of, of, of sorrow. Um, and, uh, yeah, that the church, whether people. Come to become members of our churches or become committed, uh, committed people, the ministry of the churches to console our neighbors regardless.

That's the call of the church, is to simply be where Jesus Christ is present and Jesus Christ is present ministering life to those who are at experiences of death. And so it's never instrumentalized, like if we do this. We will end up with 25% growth in all of our [00:36:00] denominational churches, that that would violate the whole thing.

That simply the church is called to go where Jesus Christ is. And Jesus Christ is found at places of death, bringing life out of it. And, um, that, I think that's how we testified to the, to the good news, to the, the, the, the angelic news that, uh, that death has overcome with life.

Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. I love that. 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

Geoff Holsclaw: So it's not just that, um, in the, like we're minds that need to be convinced of a proposition about salvation, but we're not also just a self or seeking happiness. Right. But there's like the, the deeper soul as, as you kind of been bring us back to, uh, and speaking the truth of the soul. Um, any last thoughts, uh, about this non evangelism, evangelism that you're, uh.

Of sorrow. Any a any way to, you know, bring us down even. No, I'm just kidding. Not, but any last thoughts before we sign off for [00:37:00] our holy week?

Andrew Root: Yeah. I mean, it, it really is living. I think it's great that this is gonna, you know, come out right now in Holy Week because I think it is living this very dialectic, you know, this, this, this, uh, this kind of two-sided reality of death in life. You know, that we see this very weak, that the, the sorrow of the cross cannot be.

It can, it cannot you, it, you can't cut the corners off of it. You, you, you can't, you can't shine it up. It is utter horror. It is, it is death. There's no way, uh, to see it any other way. And yet, uh, it is darkness and utter darkness. And yet, um, the resurrection is, is, is life. Um, it is, uh, it is, it is light. And so.

These two dynamics that going through the cross is, uh, how we find life and that God is a God of life, who therefore decides to minister life to those up against death [00:38:00] to me is the other good news of the gospel and, uh, the reason to keep on this path searching.

Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I'm, I'm a part of a group who, you know, really tries to enter into the joy, uh, thankfulness and gratitude is kind of a lot of the neuroscience practices. Um, and. That's all well and good, but I just wanna encourage everyone, you know, during this holy week, but also throughout their lives that that embracing, uh, that sorrow that they have, um, being able to walk with someone else who's in that place is not, is good.

And that we can't let our religious practices be a defense against that sorrow. But actually they should be op opening us up to them more so that we can weep with those who weep and then rejoice with those rejoice. Well, thank you so much. For being on again. And thank you for all the hard work you put into thinking about these things and putting out a book.

I know. We really appreciate it. I've already bought like two other books looking at all your footnotes and you know, I probably have more in my [00:39:00] Amazon, you know, cart that I'm like, should I get that? No, I shouldn't get it. Well, but maybe I should. Is my birthday coming soon? Right? You, you know how it is.

You're surrounded by books too for all of us who are, uh, watching, uh, online. But thank you so much and uh, hopefully we'll do this again.

Andrew Root: Yeah. Thanks for having me.