Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

104 Can We Master Our Emotions? Should We? (with Dr. Kevin Chapman)

• Season 7 • Episode 104

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Can we master our emotions? Is that healthy? Are emotions a gift from God, or part of our sinful reality? That’s what we are talking about today. 

Dr. Kevin Chapman is a licensed clinical psychologist with a specialty in cognitive behavioral therapy. He is the founder and director of the Kentucky Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. He leads Sound Mind Ministries and hosts The Sound Mind Show (YouTube). And he just release Mastering Our Emotions: Biblical Principles for Emotional Health.  

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Introduction: Exploring Emotions

[00:00:00] Geoff Holsclaw: Can we master our emotions? Is that even healthy? Are emotions a gift from God or are they part of a sinful reality? That is what we are talking about today. This is the Attaching to God podcast. I'm your host, Geoff Holsclaw, where we are exploring a neuroscience informed spiritual formation, and as always, we are produced by Embodied Faith. 

Meet Dr. Kevin Chapman

[00:00:20] Geoff Holsclaw: Today we have Dr. Kevin Chapman on. He is a licensed clinical psychologist with a specialty in cognitive behavioral therapy. He is the founder and director of the Kentucky Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders, and he also leads the Sound Mind, uh, ministries and hosts the Sound Mind Podcast, which is on YouTube, and he just released a new book, mastering Our Emotions, biblical Principles for Emotional.

Health. Dr. Chapman, thank you so much for being on today.

[00:00:49] Kevin Chapman: Thank you for having me, Jeff. It's a privilege and an honor. I appreciate it.

[00:00:53] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, as I said, uh, before we got on, uh, when I saw this, uh, book come across, um, I think my timeline or in an email, I was like, oh, I gotta reach out. We gotta have 'em on. Uh, partly because we haven't spent a lot of time digging into emotions. And because, uh, I believe you're the first, um. Cognitive behavioral therapist.

Journey to Clinical Psychology

[00:01:11] Geoff Holsclaw: So, but before we get into your book and all the, and emotions, which I can't wait, uh, could you just tell us how did you get into doing what you're doing? I mean, it's a long journey to become a clinical psychologist. How was the Lord leading you, uh, along that path?

[00:01:25] Kevin Chapman: Yeah, it's a great question. I get that question often, Jeff. And you know, what I like to tell people is when I went to college, frankly I didn't know what I wanted to do. I'm an extrovert by nature, so I knew I wanted to help people in some capacity. And I was also an athlete in college, so, uh, you know, my DNA is the lower, wants me to.

Be used, someone do something productive. So when I took my first psychology course, frankly my freshman year, I fell in love with it immediately. And then when I gotta the abnormal psychology section, I really fell in love with it and said, wow, abnormal behavior is intriguing, right? I think everybody's intrigued by that to some degree.

And then I discovered that anxiety in particular something we all can relate to. Anxiety disorders are the most common type of mental health problem in the world. Only one third of people receive treatment for it, and yet it's very treatable. So I naturally was inclined to say, that's interesting. I'd like to find out more about that area.

So I applied to graduate school, found someone who studies the family transmission of anxiety, and then I just took off from there.

[00:02:31] Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm. That's, yeah. Uh, the natural curiosity. I, I took one psychology class in, uh, college, but I went the philosophy route, which is also the deep things.

[00:02:42] Kevin Chapman: Oh yeah.

[00:02:43] Geoff Holsclaw: which psychology and philosophy in a lot of ways aren't, are always that different. They're the deep, the deep things of the, of life and the meaningful questions.

And so, and then I took the route towards theology and has been a pastor and at theologian,

[00:02:54] Kevin Chapman: Yep.

[00:02:55] Geoff Holsclaw: so. 

Understanding Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)

[00:02:56] Geoff Holsclaw: But you become, uh, or you became specialized as a cognitive behavioral therapist. Could you kind of at least talk about like, how'd you find your way into that and what is that specialty or that focus

[00:03:07] Kevin Chapman: Yeah. So as,

[00:03:08] Geoff Holsclaw: not know?

[00:03:09] Kevin Chapman: yeah, sure. So naturally, as an anxiety researcher, right, I was a professor first, and as a researcher in the realm of anxiety, what we find is that the gold standard treatment. And related symptoms is what's known as cognitive behavioral therapy. And again, medication is the quote unquote first line treatment is the thing.

People try first and is the most readily available, but the best treatment is what's known as cognitive behavioral therapy. Jeff, you'll like this because CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, I'll say CBT from this point forward, is really the most in line with what the word of God tells us. It's essentially the concept.

The Triad of Emotion

[00:03:44] Kevin Chapman: All emotions have three parts. I call it the triad of emotion, right? We got Father, son, and Holy Spirit. Ironically, our emotions also have three parts, and we have thoughts, what we say to ourselves, physical sensations, what we feel in our body, and then our behaviors, what we do, and all of those are bidirectional.

So in other words, Jeff, it's this idea that thoughts influence how we feel in our body and vice versa. Behaviors influenced thoughts, but vice versa. I think you see where I'm going with the word of God, but basically CBT teaches one, to recognize that there's an intricate interplay between thinking, feeling physiological, arousals, feeling and doing, or behavior and mastering or navigating how your emotional experiences.

Have that intricate interplay is the key to navigating emotional experiences with people who struggle with mental health, like panic attacks, social and.

[00:04:38] Geoff Holsclaw: So. That is super helpful. So I think sometimes I would fall into this is when you hear cognitive behavioral therapy, you're like, oh, this is just mind, this is just the thoughts and it's like a top down kind of process. Um, and then so that, you know, so what you're saying is that's not totally true. It's not just a top down, it's just not like, take your thoughts captive, you know, as we hear in scripture, but it, it, which is true, right?

We wanna do that. But, uh, CBT isn't just. Take your thoughts captives and that'll figure everything else out. Could you fill that a little bit more, that kind of like feedback loop between our body sensations, the thoughts that we have, the behaviors that kind of jet out of there, and then that it all kind of swirls because I think sometimes people misunderstand that and just think, oh CBT is just this surface level thought therapy change kind of perspective.

[00:05:28] Kevin Chapman: no, it's a great, it's a great point, and it's a great misconception because Ccbt is not just cognitive because, you know, Proverbs 23 7, right? For as a, as he thinks in his heart, so is he. And there's other scriptures we could reference, but the key is that thinking is a part of it. Jeff, honestly, most people, including the body of Christ, we're oblivious to the idea that thoughts are just one part of our emotional experience.

So when we think on things. It influences naturally our heart rate, our breathing, our body temperature, what our gastrointestinal system is doing, et cetera, neuropathways in our brain, neurochemicals and things like that. And that subsequently influences what we do. Quick example, I'm not going to yell and scream and shout at someone if I'm not thinking on that first and having arousal in my body that I then view a certain way.

So when we talk for. We oftentimes need to recognize that it's not just thinking because thinking influences arousal and arousal, influence thinking and vice versa. But it then influences our behavioral response. And I think that's why I emphasize so much, Jeff, that the triad of emotion back in the day, GI Joe used to say, knowing is half the battle.

And that's so important because if we simply know the foundation that all of our emotions, even the ones we like. Components. Then we recognize it's not just simply changing thoughts. We're talking about confronting Jeff situations that trigger intense emotionality to master our emotions, not just tolerate.

[00:07:03] Geoff Holsclaw: Mm mm So we have these feedback loops between, you know, arousal. Which can be caused by thoughts and our arousal in our bodies. And that, you know, then prompts action, which then also when we physically act, that also creates bodily experiences and then that creates new. So this is a big feedback loop. I do wanna note really quick that we must be, uh, men of a similar generation.

If you just made a GI Joe reference, I think that is the first, you know, I grew up on those cartoons, man. I love that. That was, I bring it up all the time. Knowing is half the battle. That's right. Um. Uh, those are, there are some really good life lessons at the end of all those episodes. You know, look both ways when you cross the street and, you know, how do you help somebody if they're choking?

[00:07:47] Kevin Chapman: learned how to swim from GI Joe, by the way. Just FY.

[00:07:51] Geoff Holsclaw: Alright. Wow, about that. Well, okay, so let's back it up a little bit. So you were talking about the three parts of, um, emotion, which include our thoughts, physical sensations, as well as our behaviors that, um, feedback into all those things. 

Purpose and Nature of Emotions

[00:08:05] Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, but can you back that up then just talk about, well what, what is an emotion and then what is like the purpose of our emotions that God has created for us?

[00:08:14] Kevin Chapman: Yeah, that's a great question. Also, very foundational. Excuse me. Now what I would say to that. It basically emotions. All of them serve an adaptive purpose in our life. So when we think of the ones we don't even like, like anger, sadness, disgust, anxiety, fear, all of those emotions are intended to do the following, Jeff, to get us to pay attention to both internal and external events that then motivate us to engage in specific actions.

We have emotions because God wants us to successfully navigate our world around us. It's telling us. There's something to pay attention to that warrants our attention. So you can see then fundamentally emotions are never the problem. That might sound like a hot take, Jeff, but I know you understand where I'm going with that.

Emotions are never the problem for people. It's the responses to the emotional experiences that keep people bound and trapped and not free from what God already provided through Jesus. And I think that's the issue is that we get bound in our emotional experiences and view them. As a sign threat, so we naturally try to push them away, which backfires and makes us have more of the very emotion we're trying to.  

[00:09:24] Geoff Holsclaw: So our, our emotions are adaptive, uh, kind of signals that God has given to us about what's going on in us or between us or in the environment. Um, and then our problem isn't the emotions, but it's our response. So, uh, what are some typical ways, unhealthy ways of then responding to emotions that you see?

Emotional Avoidance and Its Consequences

[00:09:44] Kevin Chapman: Well, I'll say one that's probably that most people listening to the podcast will probably not realize is avoidance. But the biggest one is what I call emotional avoidance. And I'll tell you one that's pretty simple to identify, and that's procrastination. Procrastination, frankly, right? Doesn't really hurt a lot of people, quote unquote, physically.

But the problem with procrastination as a basic example that we all can relate to is that I respond. By pushing off, studying, pushing off, working on the sermon series, pushing off, uh, working on the job interview, I immediately get temporary relief. But the problem with that strategy, Jeff, is that it backfires.

And contributes to the maintenance of the anxiety. Now, other obvious ones would be things like stonewalling like us men. Oftentimes when feel disrespected, we may say nothing or shut down, and then that could be a really problem. Big problem in our relationships, right? It could be hurling insults at people, it could be isolation.

When I feel sad or depressed, it could be binge eating. Just so there's a whole excessive working out. These are all examples of responses to emotions that indicate that I view those emotions as dangerous, and I'm trying to get relief from them, but it backfires. It makes me have more of the emotion that I'm trying to get relief from.

So it's a really interesting feedback.

[00:10:59] Geoff Holsclaw: So procrastination as. Management of anxiety. I, I find that that's so true. That's so insightful. Like so that, that not responding to that text message from one of your siblings about, you know, that party that you kinda were supposed to planned and you forgot or not, or, and sometimes it's, it's, uh, not putting out into the world.

You know your thing because you're worried about the response that you might get back to it, whether it's a paper or, or a, you know, a project or, or whatever. Uh, you know, I don't want the negative feedback, so if I just slow, slow roll. Yeah. That's so I. Back to how God uh, made us then. 'cause I really liked at the beginning of the book how you talked about emotional distress, uh, being connected to the fall.

Could you just talk about, so the emotions aren't the problem. Our response to the emotions aren't a problem. And, but there is like this distress or this distortion that has caused because of sin. Can you kind of fill out, uh, how you see that having happened and happening with us?

[00:11:56] Kevin Chapman: yeah. Terrific. 

The Fall and Emotional Distress

[00:11:57] Kevin Chapman: So, you know, Genesis three. Believer who happens to be a psychologist, Jeff, not a Christian psychologist. I say that because my

[00:12:06] Geoff Holsclaw: I like

[00:12:07] Kevin Chapman: of God. Yeah, right. Because my worldview is the word of God, and I happen to be trained as a scientist in psychology. So it helps me really understand a lot with the Holy Spirit's help, like the psychological concepts related to the word of God.

So with that said, what the Lord revealed to me is in Genesis chapter three of the fall, which we all know what happened at the fall. Sin entered the world. All these things happened as a result. One thing I rarely hear anybody talk about as part of the fall though, is what we would consider to be genetic predispositions.

Like think about what happened when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, of the knowledge of good and evil that treat, and that what happened is we saw shame enter her in. We saw anxiety enter in for the first time. We saw fear entering for the first time. We saw avoidance. Hiding, covering the things, and ironically, what I'd argue Jeff, is that we know scientifically, which lines up with Genesis three, that there are people who have a propensity, a predisposition to experience intense emotion.

There's a trait known as neuroticism that we often talk about in psychology that basically means I have a tendency to experience negative emotions coupled with the perception that the world around me is dangerous. And that I'm ill-equipped to cope with it. So what I argue is that at the fall, things like genetic predispositions, intense anxiety, intense shame, intense physiological arousal happens in many people.

That's how we know Jeff, that somebody can have a traumatic experience and not develop a disorder. And this a person two has the same experience and does it can be explained. Which can be reprogrammed, of course, in Jesus name, but the key I think, is acknowledging that that's where it all started.

Everything that we struggle with in this world.

[00:13:51] Geoff Holsclaw: So in the fall we have both a, um, a genetic or a nature kind of. Now corruption or propensity to these distorted kind of things. But then we also have the, the nurture, the environment, the human condition. 

Balancing Emotions in a Modern World

[00:14:04] Geoff Holsclaw: Now as we're just passing down that sin through, uh, would you say, this is off topic now, but for the neuroticism, would you say, so certainly there's genetic, temperamental, uh, factors to it, but would you say our current culture here in, we'll just say, you know, the United States social media, uh, is that pushing people toward.

Higher propensity toward neuroticism, toward this kind of anxiety rather than just the genetic or temperamental markers.

[00:14:31] Kevin Chapman: Hundred percent. I think that if you have that genetic tendency, 'cause you know it's both and it's like your nature, which lines up with the word, but what you feed yourself in your environment and voila, that's how problems emerge. And I think in the climate that we live in, with the advent of technology, social media in particular, especially for young people.

We know that that absolutely feeds uncertainty. It feeds anxiety, it feeds the tendency toward worry, which Jesus and Matthew six and Luke 12 said, don't do. So. All of those things certainly contribute Jeff to that tendency, and to use a Malcolm Gladwell term, in my mind, has tipped many people over the edge who have that tendency to actually worry more, to fret more, to be uncomfortable more.

Absolutely agree with that.

[00:15:14] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, Jonathan, uh, Haight has released his anxious generation. He has documents, uh, the change in parenting as well as the social media that has created now an anxious generation. So, all right, well, thanks for that tangent. So, I, I think, uh, although it's a tangent, we're all living in, so it's

[00:15:30] Kevin Chapman: Right.

[00:15:31] Geoff Holsclaw: thing. I think in the circles that I kind of run in, uh, there is for some, not for all, uh, Christian therapists or therapists who are Christians, uh, but mo more of the kind of pop psychology, the therapeutic culture that we kind of swim in just because of social media and just the, the world we're in. There is this sense.

For some, or I'll, I'll do it both sides. There's one to just deny emotions. Emotions are bad. They should be ignored. They don't give us good information. They mislead and then their distortions of the fall. And then you have the other side, which is, um, emotions are true. Emotions are good. We need to honor emotions.

And when we don't, then, um, we're, we're causing ourself harm or something like that. Do is, do you see that those kind of polarized kind of views for emotions

[00:16:17] Kevin Chapman: I do. I do. Jeff. I think there's a dichotomy. That's why I love Ephesians Grace. You've been saved, meaning there's a. Dichotomies tend to be incorrect, right? So if we go to one extreme, it's like, oh, fill everything. No. If you say suppress everything, no extremes in any view of an emotion will backfire and create more emotional behaviors.

The key is acknowledging, one of my favorite quotes is emotions are to be the caboose, not the engine. The bottom line is we're meant to master. Emotions and, but we have to first know what we don't know so that we can pay attention to those emotions and identify what they're trying to tell us and then respond to them in a regulated way.

That's the issue. So I do agree extremes. I do see those camps and it's a balance.

Mastering Emotions: A Biblical Perspective

[00:17:05] Geoff Holsclaw: So, so your book then is called Mastering Our Emotions. I, I asked that question 'cause I know that some people who might see that title might feel like, Jules, you're not supposed to master emotions. That just means you're suppressing them. That just means, uh, you're repressing them, you're creating all sorts of problems.

Um, this is just some sort of, you know. Uh, movement against psychology, but that's not your, obviously your background. So you're coming at this di from the clinical psychology as well as the biblical side. So, and you used the word regulation, which I think is so important, but could you talk then about a little bit, well, how do we master our emotions?

What does that, what does that

[00:17:40] Kevin Chapman: Right. Well first and foremost, Jeff, as you get to know me, you'll see that I back everything with scripture. So you know, in Luke

[00:17:46] Geoff Holsclaw: Amen. I

[00:17:47] Kevin Chapman: amen. So Luke 21, 19. You know, there's a lot we could say about that passage I love. But verse 19, Jesus says something very interesting. He says, by your patience. And the Greek word for possess.

Ironically, drum roll means master master your souls Jesus' instruction. He's our example, right? One Corinthians 11, one, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Paul's saying everything I do is coming from Jesus, modeling it. So Jesus is always our example, and that includes mastering. Our souls, meaning we have to learn how to regulate our emotions.

And that starts Jeff with skills. 

Practical Steps to Emotional Mastery

[00:18:23] Kevin Chapman: But it also is this idea that I have to initially know what emotions mean, what they're trying to tell me, and I have to learn how to recognize what triggers emotions. Notice I didn't say cause emotions. I said what triggers emotions? What precipitates what situations occur before an emotion?

And what are the consequences? My emotional response, procrastination's a great example, right? I feel better immediately, but it backfires and makes me feel worse. But then I have to learn various skills to respond to my emotions in a regulated fashion. And an example of that would be one skill I talk about in the book is what I call being present.

And you know, again, you mentioned the anxious Generation book by the social psychologist. Great book. And the irony of that. Psalm 1611 says, you will show me the path of life in your presence. It's fullness of joy, and I like to tell people, Jeff, you can't really be in God's presence if you're not present. We're either two hours from now, bro, or we're two hours ago. We gotta learn how to lock in, as they say in sports, and be in the presence of the Lord where there's not partial, not kind of sorta, but fullness. Of joy. So I talk about a skill of how do you meditate on what the word of God says about you in this moment in time.

Blocking out the world, blocking out the cares of the world, mazo as we say in the Greek, all the things, and just locking into what the word says and learning how to be in his presence, but also learn how to respond to our emotions in an adaptive way as they're happening in time and space. So that's just one of many skills we talk about.

[00:19:59] Geoff Holsclaw: So rather than being reactive to your emotions or to the emotions of others being able to respond in a regulated way, you could you unpack this idea, you, because you say, you know, we need to understand the purpose of emotions, which we covered a little bit, the parts of emotions, but then you talk about this, uh, what the seal of emotions, which is kind of your way of like.

Understanding how this all fits together. Could you just walk us through that a little bit as far as, um, yeah, what you mean?

[00:20:27] Kevin Chapman: And as you talk about Jeff, you know, this book, I'm really intentional about calling it a manual. 'cause as you know, there's a lot of practical application and homework assignments. So one of the things that for a human brain, particularly in this case, for the body of Christ, I use an acronym that helps us recognize what happens to us emotionally when we're in certain settings.

The SEAL Method for Emotional Awareness

[00:20:47] Kevin Chapman: So the seal. Is an acronym to help you understand what happens during an emotional experience. And the S is the situation. In other words, what happens right before I experience this emotion? Am I in a store, I'm at church? Am I my kid yelling at me? You know, things like that. The E is the emotion itself.

Label it? Is it anxiety, frustration, anger, sadness. The A and the L are interesting, Jeff, because they really are about consequences. Because our consequences after, after the emotion. Then later on, in other words, I have an immediate consequence of what happens after my emotional experience, the A, but then there's another consequence later on.

Procrastination is the basic example. My afterward consequence is, well, I feel better procrastinating. Now I can, you know, watch my favorite TV show and play video games. Later on, that problem is still there. And now I'm more anxious because I never solved the problem. So the seal should help our brothers and sisters in the body of Christ acknowledge that our emotions always have a context that they occur in.

And that's just a really help, helpful, simple way or rule of thumb, if you will, to help people navigate it.

[00:21:55] Geoff Holsclaw: How do you help people, uh, become more aware of their emotions? I know you said become present, but like when people have trouble identifying emotions or maybe they misidentify emotions, what are some ways that, you know, people that you would help people kind of move forward there?

[00:22:11] Kevin Chapman: Yeah. Well, one of the things I talk about in the book that Really's meant to solve that very problem is I think that a lot of people, this is not an actual condition, Jeff, but in clinical psychology. We often talk about people who struggle with intense emotions have what's called alexathymia, and it simply means a difficult time labeling emotions.

Most people don't know if it's frustration or anger or sadness. Young people say salty because that kind is a combination of multiple emotions. So one of the very things I'm very intentional about in the book, Jeff, is trying to get people to understand the definition of various emotions that we have so they can say, oh.

That's what frustration is. It's the result of unmet expectations. That's what anger is. It's a natural response to mistreatment, intentional injury or victimization. That's what sadness is. A response to. A personal setback or a loss, right? So when people can recognize the label. Of the emotion. I really encourage them to dial into what I call the triad that we talked about earlier, and have a sheet, which I have worksheets in the book that you can download with a QR code where it helps you track in different situations.

When you're in a situation this week and you notice an emotion, break it down into its three parts. What's the situation, what's the emotional what? Physical sensations in your body and your behaviors, and that's kind of the first step at helping people become more aware.

[00:23:38] Geoff Holsclaw: Okay. So, uh, I, I think it was in your book, I was, I was reading it yesterday where you mentioned like, well, sometimes in psychotherapy, you know, things are called repressed or suppressed. And then I think the quote was, well, oftentimes it's just unsaid. Like people don't have the words and they haven't slowed down and they need help oftentimes, you know, in therapy or in groups to kind of, was that, was that right?

[00:24:00] Kevin Chapman: Yeah, I, I rarely talk about suppression, right? I, I think I talk about sometimes thought suppression, but, but I oftentimes talk about emotional avoidance, and I think that's essentially, you know, what I, as a theme in my book is this idea of emotional avoidance. When people avoid emotions, essentially pretending they don't exist or trying to push them away, that backfires and serves the same purpose.

[00:24:22] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So you mentioned, and you did, you wrote the book as a manual. Uh, right at the beginning you said you really should just read one chapter and then work on it for a week. Uh, which I think would be great advice. Uh, either in small groups or individual, you know, I think you could do that with couples, um, maybe even with families, like maybe with teenagers.

[00:24:41] Kevin Chapman: I.

[00:24:42] Geoff Holsclaw: Even down to middle school, so, so I love that. What is your, like, what would be your hope for the church? Like if we could get better at mastering our emotions, what would be the benefit for our church and our witness?

[00:24:56] Kevin Chapman: Phenomenal question, and I think the latter part of what you said, Jeff, is exactly the intended purpose of this book, and that is for us, number one, for us to be able to walk in the freedom that Christ provided, number one. We're all whole and healthy and doing what God called us to do. I think when we don't master our emotions, it prevents us from fulfilling not only the call on our lives, but fulfilling the great commission.

So on the one hand, it's us being healthy and whole period, right? Spiritually, physically, et cetera. Then that provides us with the opportunity to share the gospel. And be able to do so much more effectively. It's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance, right? So Romans two, four. So the key is if we're healthy and whole, we're modeling emotional mastery for the world.

So when they see us and the fruit that we're bearing as believers, they want more of that fruit and we can explain to them where it came from. It came from the word of God. So it just makes us a better witness.

[00:25:51] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. So it, uh, kind of the way I was hearing it was it helps us to love God and love others better, uh, because we've mastered our emotions, which I think hopefully listeners will know. That doesn't mean mastering so they go away. It just means mastering so that then they can be truly expressed and adaptive in the ways that God intended.

So we are to be angry. We're just not supposed to be. We're not supposed to sin in our anger as we're taught, you know? And then scripture tells us to laugh and rejoice with those who rejoice, right? So having the proper, joyful response. And we're supposed to also cry with those. Weep with those who weep, right?

So sadness, so, so it's not like we're not supposed to express or have these emotions, we're just supposed to have them in the right ways that God intended. That for me isn't that just kind of like helps us to love others and love God better.

[00:26:39] Kevin Chapman: It does. It really is like the fruit of the spirit. I always think about the fruit of the spirit in triads, Jeff. Kind of like the emotions we talked about. It's like our attitude toward God, the first three, and like our attitude toward others with the second three and then our own self conduct. And the third.

And it's really ironic because when I think of the fruit of the spirit, I think about the very dialogue you and I are having, bro. And that is, it does, it allows us to use our emotions to glorify God, use our emotions to navigate situations, not to suppress or push them away. 'cause that's not why we have them.

[00:27:08] Geoff Holsclaw: Mm. Mm-hmm. And I think, um, that would, like you said, that would definitely help our witness because to be able to be angry about the right things in the right way and say, this is not, uh, God's justice. This is not God's way in the world. And to be sad, you know, and to grieve, uh, in the right way at the right times, but then also to rejoice and have fun.

You know, like, you like being around people who can do those different things, who you're like, he only get, he only gets mad. When it, when it, it's needed, right? But you can also play and have fun and you know, and then you can sit and be still with those who are weeping and you know, those are the kind of people we wanna be around.

And if we could be those kind of people as a church, then you know, then like Jesus, you know, people would be coming. To the church again, but so often I feel like we're not mastering our emotions and uh, and, and people are just like, ah, I don't know if you have the fullness of life in you because I don't see it.

[00:28:01] Kevin Chapman: Right.

[00:28:01] Geoff Holsclaw: part of it's because our emotions are not being mastered.

[00:28:05] Kevin Chapman: Yep.

[00:28:05] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, sorry if I was ranting. I just love, I love, this is why I was like, I, I gotta get Kevin on. I gotta get Kevin on. We gotta talk about this. This is so good. Uh, I can't, can't recommend. And it's a, it's a short book. It's very, very accessible.

Thank you for doing the hard work. 'cause I know it's hard to get everything, you know, real as some people say on the bottom shelf. Like, not in a bad way, but in a good way. Like, this is just really helpful. The book is really helpful. It's really brief, but it, you know, it packs a punch.

[00:28:32] Kevin Chapman: Thank you.

Encouragement and Final Thoughts

[00:28:33] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, so is there one last kind of thing that you would want, you know, just to kind of, to leave us on or an encouragement or an ex, however you would like?

[00:28:41] Kevin Chapman: You know, I would say this, and I, like you said, exhortation, Jeff, because I encounter so many people, not only in ministry, but clinically, right, that they always say, I've had this distress for so long. Right. I've had, I. Difficulty mastering emotions for decades even. And I'm just here to tell you that if that's you, and you're listening to this, the length of time you've had, distress is not at all related to the final say.

If you're motivated to master your emotions and you're motivated to partner with the Holy Spirit and allow him, which is why the book is intended to do this, to speak to you through. Not only his word, but through the words he spoke through me in the book, I think it's gonna help you recognize that the length of time you've had distress and struggle is not at all related to you overcoming it.

So I just wanna encourage you that I think this book will bless you and not only is meant for you, but it's meant to disciple secretly. It's really to get you to master your emotions. So you can use it in your small group, you can use it with your family, use it with your kids, so we can all speed this thing up and fulfill the great commission.

Amen.

[00:29:43] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Amen. Amen to that. Well, where can people, you're a busy guy, you have a lot going on. 

Where to Find Dr. Kevin Chapman

[00:29:48] Geoff Holsclaw: Where can people kind of connect with you or how can they find you and the work you're doing?

[00:29:52] Kevin Chapman: Yeah, I am all over the place, Jeff. So I'll say the auctioneer version. Uh, I'd say certainly sound mind ministries plural.org. You can find the Sound Mind Show on YouTube. I'm on the Gospel Truth Network, which the Christian Christian Network on tv and we're on there on Healing Journeys today. Speaking about these various things we talked about today, um, on Instagram, you can find Dr.

Kevin Chapman there, or you can go to my personal website, dr kevin chapman.com. I have other things, but those are, you can find me on social. Yep.

[00:30:24] Geoff Holsclaw: Excellent. What, so the, the Gospel Truth Network, that's a, that's on television.

[00:30:29] Kevin Chapman: It is, it's GTN, uh, Andrew Womack Ministry started at Cares Bible College, which is in Colorado. It's, uh, it's Gospel Truth Network. It's a new network. It's a phenomenal word. It's great. And it's 24 hours a day. And yeah, so we have a, I'm a part of a team called Healing Journeys today, and I'm a teacher on Healing Journeys today, and I talk about these very topics, various topics like overcoming insomnia, overcoming anxiety, overcoming sadness, overcoming fear of man, things like that.

[00:30:56] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, that's great. I

[00:30:57] Kevin Chapman: Yeah. Amen.

[00:30:58] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, good. Well, I'll be putting all that into the show notes for all of you. If you, uh, were furiously writing that down, you can click on all those. But thank you so much for taking your time outta your schedule and, uh, jumping on with us today.

[00:31:09] Kevin Chapman: Thank you, Jeff. It was a pleasure.

[00:31:11] Geoff Holsclaw: Yes. Thank you.