Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation

103 Take What You Need: Soft Words for Hard Days (with Aundi Kolber)

• Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw

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For when the day is long. When you are afraid. When you don’t know what to say to someone you love. When you feel alone. When you’re questioning everything. When you wonder if God is with you.

We are talking with the author ofTry Softer, Aundi Kolber, about her new book, Take What You Need: Soft Words for Hard Days. 

Aundi Kolber is a licensed professional counselor (MA, LPC) and best-selling author of the critically acclaimed "Try Softer" as well as her new book "Strong like Water." She specializes in trauma- and body-centered therapies and is passionate about the integration of faith and psychology.

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Introduction and Guest Welcome 

[00:00:14] Geoff Holsclaw: Some days, maybe you need to learn how to try softer, but maybe other days you need to become more strong like water. We are so excited to have the author of both of those books on with us. Uh, today, this is the Attaching to God podcast, hosted by Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw, and produced by Embodied Faith and Aundi Kolber.

Did I say that right? I always say your last. Ah, see, I knew I was gonna do it wrong. See, we're trying to keep the human

[00:00:42] Aundi Kolber: That's okay. You know what that is. Okay. If you wanna keep it, just so you know. Oh, we're keeping,

[00:00:48] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, we're keeping it. No, I never go back. So, but just to keep going on, so today we have Aundi Kolber. There we go. Who is author of many books. She is a licensed professional counselor, uh, and the bestselling author of Tri Softer and Strong Like Water. She is survivor of trauma and she brings her hard one.

Knowledge and courage and, uh, belief in redemptive change, uh, into her work and kind of open spaces for all of us. And we're glad to have her on to talk about her most recent book, but also just kind of about all these different things. Thank you for being on, even though I botched your name again.

[00:01:26] Aundi Kolber: is okay. And you know what? Listen, we all have our verges I, those things, you know how they stick in our head and I do the same thing in my life. Well, and it

[00:01:36] Cyd Holsclaw: Well, and it doesn't help that one of our kids actually had a friend with the last name Cobler, and so like the, it's a rehearsed last name for us and.

[00:01:46] Aundi Kolber: Totally.

[00:01:47] Cyd Holsclaw: But I know we even had a conversation about how people always pronounce your name wrong. So Kolber

[00:01:52] Aundi Kolber: we go. 

[00:01:52] Cyd Holsclaw: deso listeners, the L comes before the B

[00:01:57] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, just so you know, a couple episodes, uh. I just recorded an episode and someone referenced you and called you, uh, Andy, uh, colder.

[00:02:06] Aundi Kolber: Okay. That's a new one.

[00:02:07] Geoff Holsclaw: at least, yeah, there was a deth thrown in there. I was like, and then, uh, he mentioned it again, and then he got it the right way. It was pretty funny. So listeners, you can be on your, on the lookout for that in, uh, future episodes, but we're so glad, uh, that, that you're here.

Um, and c, could you. For listeners who don't know you or your worker, your story, I know you're like, I could tell my story for hours, but you know, like maybe just parts of the story that lead up to kind of the book and kind of the, the picture that you're hoping to kind of present of

[00:02:39] Aundi Kolber: Yeah. No, totally. Well, thank you both for having me. It's good to be with you. And I do wanna just say to the person referencing me the fact that they got my first name right. I actually feel impressed. 'cause I feel like that's the one that gets really interesting sometimes. So I appreciate that. 

Aundi Kolber's Background and Trauma Journey

[00:02:56] Aundi Kolber: Um, yeah, so, so part of my story, you know, I think.

Definitely, there's a lot that I could say, but. Essentially, you know, I grew up in a family with a, a lot of trauma. Uh, one of my caregivers was profoundly abusive in multiple ways. And, you know, the case with complex trauma is often, it's not just one experience, it's it's multiple experiences, chronic experiences that are unresolved.

And oftentimes that there's the experience of, of like being trapped. Like you, you can't leave this very unsafe situation and. That was the case in my life. Um, and so part of the dynamic was that I, you know, I didn't really have a lot of protection when I was growing up either. Partly 'cause of my mom with her own mental health issues.

And, um, and so part of how I survived a lot of my life, I had a lot of different strategies, which in many ways, you know, these were. These were not things that I necessarily chose, but things that developed in me. And I, I conCyder that in many ways the grace of God. Um, because, you know, when we don't have any defenses in the face of trauma in many ways, um, the effects of that are even more.

We don't have anything to help us through. Right? So when I think about how I survived, um, my life, you know, in tri software I talk about I was an expert, white knuckler, like just knew how to push so far past my limits and that that sort of helped me in multiple ways. It, it allowed me to get at least some of the care that I needed by being impressive or sometimes it meant, um, it helped me leave the, the.

Sort of the family system in a way. I got some space because of what I achieved. And then one of the other things that often came up is learning to sort of what I would think of as. Sort of leave myself through the sense of like becoming whatever the person I perceived, whoever had the most power, um, sort of shape shifting to become what they needed, you know?

And so sometimes this is, I think this is very connected to what's known as the fond response, um, which is coined. Um. Uh, by Pete Walker, but just this way in which we over adapt, over accommodate, um, in order to keep someone happy. And so really, especially this newest book, take What You Need, I think touches on that strategy this way, in which, um, I think it's really common for people, not just for folks who identify with complex trauma, which certainly there are a number of folks, but I think in a culture like ours.

A culture that sort of rewards us for, um, sort of being disembodied, um, rewards us for pushing us beyond the wisdom that God gave our bodies. Like, oh, that's enough. That's maybe that doesn't feel okay to me, but I, I get rewarded, or at least some attention or care or whatever. Um, or at least it's less threatening when I'm willing to do that.

And so. 

Discussing 'Take What You Need'

[00:06:08] Aundi Kolber: Yeah, this, this book, take What You Need comes out of that desire outta my partly my own story, first and foremost, but then the many people that I had the opportunity to work with, to say, what would it be like to re-inhabit the wisdom that God gave you and participating with God with the Spirit?

Listen. And I think of it almost like God setting a table for us. And it's like, there's this hospitality and it's like, okay, take what you need.

[00:06:43] Geoff Holsclaw: that.

[00:06:47] Cyd Holsclaw: I, I just really wanna, um, I'm curious if, if it means to you, what I think it means to me, um, but when I, I love that you titled it, take what you need instead of Take what you Want. I was literally just having a conversation this morning with someone around, um, classic white Knuckler, which I have also been a white knuckler.

Um, but that sort of classic of like, well, I've never been indecisive. I know what I want. I go after it and I was like, yes, you absolutely know what you want, but I'm not sure you know what you need.

[00:07:23] Aundi Kolber: I.

[00:07:24] Cyd Holsclaw: And I think there's a difference. And so I'm curious how you would see that difference. And then, I mean, I could talk about it too, but I wanna hear what your thoughts, because you specifically titled the book, take What You

[00:07:36] Aundi Kolber: yeah. 

The Difference Between Wants and Needs

[00:07:37] Aundi Kolber: Well what a great example that you're giving there. And I think certainly, I think there's a lot of nuance to this. I think, you know, I know like Dr. Kurt Thompson, you know, like talks and not just Kurt, but like that desire.

Want that. I believe that there is a God givenness to that too, but I think that in the midst of when we don't have that inner self knowing, when we're not really connected to what I would almost call like wisdom, I think things get mixed up. I think they get blurry, right? And we're designed to not want to be in pain.

Like that's just our God-given, like that's how we are designed. And so I think when we have pain and pain that we don't, is not even very conscious. What can happen is, is we just start throwing stuff at the pain and we're like, well, I want this right, but maybe what we really want is for the pain to, to go away.

That's right. And so I think that's where we get mixed up. And so, you know, I think with this idea of take what you need, part of when I, I started saying it probably about five years ago, and I started seeing it, especially like in my social media spaces because I was trying to figure out how do I convey in this sort of two dimensional world, this invitational posture of saying like, yes, I am a therapist, but like I'm not in your body.

I'm also not the Holy Spirit, right? Like I am a person on the internet, so like at the end of the day, that's who I am to you, right? And so I'm sharing something and I hope it will be helpful, but I want to empower you with the, the choice to actually get really curious about that. And, and it's like where it originally came from for me is seeing it in places like.

Like food pantries, right? Like I don't have enough food, I need food. Or like supplies that, that people needed that they were like short, you know, things that were really important. Take what you need. And that's what it reminded me of is like, what do you need so that you can inhabit this life that God has given you?

And I think sometimes those wants can very much be connected to the need. But we have to have sort of, um, I think we need a certain level of safety and support

[00:10:26] Cyd Holsclaw: Mm.

[00:10:26] Aundi Kolber: to untangle. Is this a want that's sort of coming out sometimes maybe Cydeways, um, to try to just make the pain go away.

[00:10:39] Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:41] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:43] Geoff Holsclaw: The, can I jump be,

[00:10:46] Aundi Kolber: I.

[00:10:46] Geoff Holsclaw: I love that. Uh, and 'cause I like what Sue was saying about the, um. You know, the difference between wants and needs, but what I was hearing, and the way you described it, is like the invitation that people would use their agency to, you know, it's not the experts saying, this is what you need, this is what you need to do.

Um, but you're kind of just the open-handed, like, you know, like maybe only one of these four things that got mentioned in this podcast on this post, in this book will help you. Uh, just take that and just leave the rest. Like, you don't have to feel bad about it. You don't even have to. Tell me that you disagree and show me that I'm wrong.

Right. It's just because so often we get into that like, you know, especially online, right? It's like there's all these memes that go around, honey, I'll go to bed soon. I'm, I'm fixing something that's on the internet and it's just like, you know, I gotta solve the internet. It's just like, well, that's never gonna happen.

So I love that, uh, just that agency, you know, that it's an invitation. I love that.

The Role of Embodiment in Healing

[00:11:42] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, and I think it really is interesting to tease out the difference between want and need because I mean, I agree with, I agree with you, and the whole spiritual tradition of like, you know, Ignatius too talked about desires and how when we are aligned with God, we want what God wants. And it, and it's a, we love what God loves and we become sort of our natural impulses of wanting line up with what's actually gonna flourish our lives and the lives of others around us.

But I know, I too always thought I was a very decisive person and I always took action. And I knew what I, you know, I knew what I wanted and I would go after it. But often my want was driven by an avoidance of conflict or a reduction of pain. Or even just trying to move away from a situation that was hard for me to handle.

So, you know, like, I mean, before Geoff and I got married, the longest job I'd ever had was 18 months. Because it was like, Nope, this is too hard. I gotta eject and find something that I want. 'cause I want to do something different. This isn't the job I want to do. But I didn't recognize that underneath all of that was like a mask for, I'm just trying to avoid pain everywhere I go. probably what I really needed

[00:13:00] Aundi Kolber: was support. I needed a

[00:13:03] Cyd Holsclaw: I needed a place where I could be honest and talk about how I was hurting. I needed a place where I could say, I can't be strong today.

[00:13:13] Aundi Kolber: And

[00:13:14] Cyd Holsclaw: And so I love that you're offering that kind of space of just saying, you know, you don't have to be strong in the way that you think.

You have to be strong

[00:13:24] Aundi Kolber: and

[00:13:25] Cyd Holsclaw: and. Just reading from your book. You know, I, I love the way you talk about this too often, what begins as an adaptive strength in one situation becomes our default strength in all situations. It becomes our reflexive position as we move through life, as if our bodies carry the imprint of past pain in the next moment, because we never fully metabolize that hurt in the first place.

So we survive. Yes, but we never thrive because we aren't experiencing the fullness God created. For us. I just really like the way that you talk about what we often perceive as the strength

[00:14:00] Aundi Kolber: actually.

[00:14:00] Cyd Holsclaw: is actually thwarting the life that God has for us because it's the only strength we're drawing on.

[00:14:08] Aundi Kolber: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for, thank you for reading that. And I do think there is such a connection. Like all this work, I'll always like, I think this is partly why I continue to do this work. Not the only reason, but I love to see the way ideas integrate. Like, it's so satisfying to me to see that, like in one book, I could be talk, talking about being softer and in one book I can talk about being stronger.

And in some ways they are inextricably linked, basically, you know, and even take what you need that this is also linked to this ability, um, to discern, right? Like this is a discernment practice. And, and I think this is also why I have so much respect for. Learning to help people, you know, both in my own life, because I think it has to be a practice that I embody.

But helping people to begin to listen to their body. Like what does that even mean? Right? And where do we even, what does that look like? And certainly it's not always as clear as like, my body's not just giving me a transcript and saying, here's your directions for today. But we be, and that would be nice sometimes, right?

Because it's confusing.

[00:15:21] Cyd Holsclaw: It would certainly disrupt the way we

[00:15:23] Aundi Kolber: It would, it really would. It really would. But so many of us, right, like regardless, I mean even in, let me call it good enough, parenting homes. Right. If the cultural norm is disembodiment, if the cultural norm is to over logic, right? To just remain in that space, you know, the, the very disconnection from the body makes it more difficult to say, is this a desire rooted in my God-given self, or is this avoidance?

Is this something like, is this thing in alignment with the person that God made me to be? This is this in alignment with my values. And so, so much of that actually part of the way we begin to piece it together also happens in our bodies because the body is helping us to discern like cognitively. I want that.

But every time I think about it, my shoulders are up to my ears. That's just really interesting information.

[00:16:42] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:16:43] Aundi Kolber: would it be like for us just to even have enough spaciousness and the support to just even have curiosity? We don't even have to know exactly what that means. If we can begin to get curious.

But so many of us have been taught to push past that automatically dismiss it, um, that it just makes it really difficult not to continue that way of being.

[00:17:08] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:17:12] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:17:14] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I know that some people's views of God play into that. Uh, and so it's not just a culture of disembodiment. There's actually a lot of theology, uh, and doctrine that emphasizes that. So. 

Theology and God's Compassionate Presence

[00:17:28] Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, and, and we don't have to go down that trail of, of, of the wrong way, but in, in your book and in the quotes, 'cause especially like the Psalms, uh, and the verses that you spread all throughout, um, take what you need.

Uh, I got this a particular sense of of God. And so I was wondering if you would just kind of like. Introduce people to how you wish people could experience God rather than these other ways That could be the harsh critic or the disembodied or the distant grandfather or something like that. Could, did you have that sense or, or

[00:18:00] Aundi Kolber: That's a beautiful question. I love that. And yeah, I want it. I do want to acknowledge the reality of how much theology impacts how we view God. You know? And I remember, I think something that stands out to me from when I went to seminary is just that idea that. You know, theology ultimately teaches us, um, it's a, it's essentially like what we believe about God.

Like that's what our, our theology is, right? Which I think is so deeply intertwined into how could it not then show up, right? Like, our life, how could it not deeply shape us in how we're interacting, um, with ourselves, others, and God. Um, so that matters for sure.

And I think, you know, for me and in the work that I do, um, I certainly, what I'll say is that in my childhood, I. Uh, I, I have had experiences of God, like throughout my entire life. Like, um, I was, you and I, we all have had conversations about this off, you know, off camera when we, when we originally met. But just I feel like what's interesting for me is that I've sort of experienced this acumenical, like, um, just sort of a gamut.

Of so many different views on God, which I think is, is both helpful for me and also gives me a view of how sometimes distorted I, I, I experience those views sometimes to be, um, I'm grateful for what I would call like my own sort of contemplative, mystical experiences of God. Yeah, because I think that has deeply affirmed a reality of, in some ways, for me, psychology and what we know about, like for interpersonal neurobiology, for example.

Um, and even things like polyvagal theory have affirmed a. For me, a view of God, which I absolutely believe is represented in scripture, that God is deeply compassionate, that God turns towards us, that God is with us. I mean, for me, one of the most profound pictures, and I know you both have such a passion for attachment and, and you know, you know the reality of God's.

Safety and security, um, towards us and with us. And for me, God, with us, Emmanuel, Jesus is for me, like, like every, every time, anytime I'm like, anytime I wrestle with these concepts, if Jesus is the lens through which we interpret scripture in the Bible and Jesus is the incarnation, embodiment of God that is moving towards us.

Um, that is profound and it's so profound in the sense that I think it is showing, and I hope this is the sense that you get and take what you need, that there is a way in which God's posture is deeply compassionate and always moving towards us in our pain. That there is a way in which God knows that shame.

You know, I think about like it's God's kindness. That leads us towards repentance that, you know, one of the things I talk about in try Softer is that no matter how hard we try, hate or shame cannot ultimately move us towards healing. And I think there's just these profound realities and truths that when something is true, they like, they cannot help but mirror each other in, in the fullness of their truth.

And so I hope that what people see and experience is that. God is the author of healing and that that is this touch point that even when we do not have the ability to turn towards God, God is even then working and acting and loving us on our behalf. Right. And I just think, again, bringing, I think this is such deep attachment work and.

You know, I love that Henry Nolan's work has become so, so popular. I, I, I love that because it, it, in my opinion, deserves to be, and his perspectives on belovedness have been deeply meaningful to me personally, because that, for me was like my own relearning. Like, I had known experiences of God that were good and kind and with me, but the theology didn't always match.

And my own journey of truly learning, like, like, sort of like that's my name. Like that's our, you know, that's our names is, is Beloved. And I think that's a deeply, um, important and meaningful thing that I hope comes through.

[00:22:53] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I think it does. Yeah. Even just one example. I mean, this is what you're talking about. God with us and the embodiment of Jesus, even you know, you say Jesus', life on earth says, I choose to sacrifice my body so you can honor and pay compassionate attention to yours. This is the length to which I'll go to Love you.

[00:23:16] Aundi Kolber: hmm. I.

[00:23:18] Cyd Holsclaw: I love the way you said that, you know, and that like, I think one of the pushbacks I often hear is like, my body, what? Like, why do I need to pay such close attention to my body? I'm regularly inviting people to do body scans, just to just notice what's there and people are often, why, what's the point? Like, why do I need it?

I just really, um, appreciate the way that you said, you know what, Jesus, Jesus sacrificed his body so that we can pay attention to ours because our bodies do have so much to offer us in the way of insight around what we need.

[00:23:54] Aundi Kolber: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, and I do just, you know, I love, I truly love. Just the way in which I think if you have, when we get enough information to understand it, 'cause sometimes that's part of it, right? Like we haven't, nobody's ever, we don't have the psychoeducation or whatever, but I just absolutely love to geek out about this reality of an incarnation.

God. I mean, that's profound. I mean, it's just like, and yes, Jesus is, it's absolutely his death and his resurrection, but it's his life. It's his life, right? And so I think particularly as a trauma survivor and a trauma therapist, the significance of the full embodiment of God is something that, you know, I think we are paying it.

You know, first of all, it makes me a little bit emotional right now as I'm, I'm tearing up because it's so deeply meaningful for how we live now. Right, because it reflects the way that theology is often lived out right now, which is to say what's happening in your life and in your body. Just, it doesn't really matter.

'cause someday we'll be in heaven and then Jesus goes and says, oh, I'm gonna have a full life. I, you know, I sometimes say like Jesus wept and slept and lived and died and set boundaries and celebrated and did all these things in a body. Yeah,

[00:25:21] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:25:22] Aundi Kolber: really matters. And God, I, I mean, if we deeply believe that God is who we think God is, you know, like all powerful, omnipresent God, God could have done it differently.

I, I believe,

[00:25:35] Geoff Holsclaw: Right, right. Well, I, uh, whenever I teach in my theology classes about like the incarnation and Christology, I always like sneak in. At some point I was like, you know, Jesus pooped. I. You know, 'cause you just want, you just kind of want people to be like, oh, like if we take the humanity seriously, like, you know, they had these bodily processes.

Um, and this is all like a. I'll just have to like clip this whole podcast. This is like the justification for why Cyd and I call our work embodied Faith. Like this is exactly why. But I think what you said about the incarnation is like the Eastern church is often like the Western church emphasizes the death and resurrection, uh, as this atonement and um, kind of how do you forgive sin and things like that.

But, uh, you were talking about God being, you know, the author of Healing and I know the Eastern Church emphasizes much more that the moment of incarnation. Is the moment in which the healing began, and it's the moment in which God, the cure in a sense, like came dwelt among us. And that, that our healing could kind of commence.

And certainly, uh, the death and resurrection is kind of this really important point, but it's the, the incarnation is, is the beginning of that. I just think that's, that's so great. 

Attachment to God and Healing Work

[00:26:47] Geoff Holsclaw: You, you mentioned a couple times already that like, oh, attachment is so central and since this is called the Attachment to God podcast, how do you. Like, how do you think about that? As far as like theology or just spirituality and like becoming more attached to God? Or maybe you don't think that way, or, um, but I'm just wondering, you know, if you

[00:27:05] Aundi Kolber: Yeah. Well I think, you know, I, I think it's definitely a really central concept to me. I think it's probably something, one of the key things that has probably. Saved my faith, honestly, um, is just this reality of. I think almost like because of significant harm in my own life. I think there, you know, and, and I know you both know this because of the work you do, but when significant attachment figures have been deeply unsafe and harmful and abusive, it's like our body naturally sort of projects that onto God.

Like this is sort of part of the way we make sense of the world. Um, and so, you know, I, I have, this has been part of my own journey and it's been a lot of times experiences that I have had, um, you know, working with clients in terms of their own work, the, the what they're bringing. And I think first and foremost, to me, part of why I think I include faith.

In the work that I do, um, because I think a lot of the psychology is a good on its own, right? Like it can, it can stand as a valuable thing. Um, even when we're not integrating faith. And not to say it's the be all, end all, but there's a helpfulness right to these realities. But I think there's a fullness when we are able to see that God is with us, that God is the author of healing.

And so for me, essentially all, all healing work ultimately is attachment work. In my opinion, in the sense that God, if God is holding all things, then in a way God is the container for our healing. Even when we don't know it, even when we can't see it. Right. And so I think for me, like a couple years ago, I, at different times and different seasons, I've sort of had like different series of things that I do on social media.

You know, just like mix it up. But one of the series that I did was what I called prayers of a Trauma survivor and. One of the things that was really important to me in just the language was that difference between being like, God, will you come and be with us? Versus being like, God, give me eyes to see.

You're here,

[00:29:32] Geoff Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:33] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:29:34] Aundi Kolber: you're here, you're good. You're, you are with us. And, and I think there's, it, it, we don't always talk about that kind of thing as attachment. But in my opinion, and this is why I always integrate attachment work into the things that I'm doing, because it's inextricable, I believe even if we change the language, like we could call it something else, this is like essentially relational, right?

Like this is, this is making sense of how we are and why we exist and where is God in this and who is God to us in this. And I think an important piece for a lot of trauma survivors is to ask the question, God, what is your posture to me in pain? How do you feel about my pain? And it is these ways of beginning to have language and to even begin to create some spaciousness to see is it possible?

That the way I'm experiencing God isn't necessarily representative of God.

[00:30:41] Cyd Holsclaw: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:43] Aundi Kolber: you know, and through, you know, whether it's psychoeducation or whether it's. You know, doing work around family of origin or with, uh, you know, primary attachments in the present, as we sometimes get curious about that and how those patterns live in our body, I think it also, at the pace that someone is able, gives us insight into how they're relating to God and what and what does it look like to be curious and.

To potentially shift those patterns in, in supporting that. So, so all that to say, I think of it like this, this way in which, um, I feel like there is a, there's, there's a bunch of inextricable links that it's like, in a way, God is always a part of the conversation, even when God's not acknowledged as being part of the conversation.

And as I think folks have. Um, and again, like I think things like consent are really important, which is why, you know, um, Geoff, you spoke earlier about the agency piece, right? Like, sometimes people aren't in a place where they're yet able or wanting to acknowledge that, but for me, I feel confident in the work that I do because I know God's posture is kind and that, and so that gives me confidence to do healing work.

Um, even if someone is like, you know, like doesn't, they aren't even a Christian, but, but I in my body know God's posture to them is good and kind. Um, so those are some of the things that like inform how that comes in.

[00:32:29] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I just wanna say a hearty amen to so much of what you said. I especially like when you took the phrase. All healing work is attachment in that sense that whenever we're engaging in healing work, we're engaging in that work of, of restoring and repairing attachment that has been ruptured. And, you know, even the, the, the work of, of.

Reattaching to the God who really is, rather than the God that we have thought that he is because of the stories that we have lived. Um, and so just that. I just, just that open invitation that God has to every single one of us of, you know, come to me and let all the little children come to me. Don't hinder them.

And just that kindness. I love that you're saying, even when you're working with someone who's not acknowledging that God is part of the conversation, your body knows.

[00:33:27] Aundi Kolber: That's right.

[00:33:28] Cyd Holsclaw: What's really going on?

[00:33:30] Aundi Kolber: Yeah.

[00:33:31] Cyd Holsclaw: And again, coming back to that embodied, integrated wisdom where your faith is not just in your head. It's not just something you can articulate.

It's something you live and experience in an integrated way in your, in the fibers of your being. And I just really appreciate that and just, yeah. Thank you for summing it up the way that you just did. Yeah.

[00:33:54] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, we, uh, you know, in this podcast, I say this probably just about every time, but going back to one John, you know, where he says that we love God because God first loved us. And then, you know, I always kind of retranslated of like. We're, we can become attached to God because God is already attached to us.

And I think that's, that's the kindness, that's the compassion. Also, God is our champion, giving us courage, you know, to take new steps and try new adventure, and discover new things about ourselves, about others, and even about God. And, and that's, and like you said, that's the, the context that even if other people that we're working with.

Don't have that framework. We can have that. And then, and then we get, this is what I think the privilege probably for all of us and many people are spiritual directors and therapists and pastors. Then you get the privilege of being able to partner with God to be like, well, does this moment need to cultivate compassion?

Or does this moment need to cultivate, you know, to be a champion for, for more courage? You know, and, and how, uh, are we all kind of becoming more human in that process, which is what God wants for us. Um. 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:34:59] Geoff Holsclaw: Already. So thank you.

[00:35:01] Aundi Kolber: Can I

[00:35:02] Cyd Holsclaw: Can I end with one last quote from Andy? So when we remember God's with, when we remember how God has shown up for us. When we have eyes to see the goodness around us, even through the smallest details of nature, we can find glimmers of hope. He is always making a way for us to reconnect, to experience even the smallest glimpses of safety.

[00:35:28] Aundi Kolber: My hope

[00:35:29] Cyd Holsclaw: So my hope is that everyone who's listening today would just hear that, that God is always making ways to reconnect. Yeah.

[00:35:38] Geoff Holsclaw: Hmm.

[00:35:39] Cyd Holsclaw: For your great books. Thank you for taking the time to be with us today too. Just really appreciate your time

[00:35:45] Aundi Kolber: your

[00:35:46] Cyd Holsclaw: and your friendship.

[00:35:47] Aundi Kolber: thank you. You. appreciate you both and thanks for the, the work that you're doing and just for, yeah, being willing to have these conversations. I think they really matter.

[00:35:59] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, again, for all the listeners and everybody out on YouTube there, uh, the book is Take What You Need, soft Words for Hard Days. It just, uh, released or it's about to release, uh, here. Um, where can people find you online or on the socials in case they want to keep following

[00:36:16] Aundi Kolber: Yeah, so, um, you can find me on my website, andy colbert.com, and I do have, you know, some resources there, things like videos that go with some of my work and things like that. If people are in. And then also on Instagram at Andy Kolber and the

[00:36:32] Cyd Holsclaw: And the L comes before the B.

[00:36:36] Aundi Kolber: That's right.

[00:36:38] Geoff Holsclaw: not like the cookies or anything like that. Well, thanks again. Well, we hope you, uh, right now we're all on the same kind of mid snow storm, so hopefully here in Grand Rapids, hopefully we'll be digging ourselves out and having a good day.