101 Forming Leaders and Ministers: Depth, Character, and Spiritual Direction (David Clayton)

Leaders, pastors, and pioneers of movements are often outward and forward-focused. Often this means leaving the inward life unexplored and ignored. How can leaders tend to the depths within, and how might spiritual directors help in this work? How best can we support and form clergy and leaders?

David Clayton is a qualified and experienced Spiritual Director, Supervisor, and Behavioural Analyst. With a unique blend of expertise in behavioral science and spiritual direction, David provides a holistic approach that emphasizes both inner development and practical application. He is committed to guiding individuals on their journey toward greater self-awareness, purpose, and personal growth (learn more about the Monos Collective).

Check out the DMIN in Spiritual Formation and Relational Neuroscience here. 

Stay Connected:

• NEED spiritual direction or coaching that aligns with this podcast? Connect with Cyd Holsclaw here.
• Join the Embodied Faith community to stay connected and get posts, episodes, & resources.
• Support the podcast with a one-time or regular gift (to keep this ad-free without breaking the Holsclaw's bank).

Transcript

David Clayton

Introduction to the Podcast and Topic

[00:00:14] Geoff Holsclaw: Leaders, pastors, pioneers of movements are often outward and forward focused. Often this means, or sometimes this means that the inward life, uh, can be left unexplored or sometimes even ignored. How can leaders tend to the depths within them and how might spiritual direction and spiritual directors, uh, be a part of that work?

That's what we're talking about today. How best can we support clergy, pastors, and leaders and their formation? This is the Attaching to God podcast with Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw, where we are exploring a neuroscience informed spiritual formation, and this is produced by Embodied Faith. 

Meet David Clayton: Spiritual Director and Behavioral Analyst

[00:00:50] Geoff Holsclaw: Today we have our special guest, David Clayton.

He is a qualified and experienced spiritual director, supervisor, and coach. Behavioral analysis with a unique blend of expertise in behavioral sciences and spiritual direction. David seeks to provide a holistic approach that both emphasizes the inner and the depths of development, as well as practical applications.

David was recently a speaker at a church planting and theology conference in England. Uh, and we were talking about that. And so I wanted to kind of. Kind of, uh, continue that conversation about the deep needs of spiritual leaders, uh, and how spiritual direction might fit with that. And so I was like, let's, let's be on the podcast.

So David, welcome to the attaching to God podcast

[00:01:33] David Clayton: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Great to be here with yourself and Cyd today and share this conversation. It's very exciting. And, uh, I think it is an important area, uh, that needs, needs looking at a little more closely. So thanks for this opportunity to, uh, develop that. Yeah. Sure.

David's Journey: From Behavioral Analysis to Spiritual Direction

[00:01:57] Cyd Holsclaw: Geoff introduced you, said that you have a background in behavior analysis as well as spiritual direction. I'm curious, which came first for you and how did one lead to the other?

[00:02:10] David Clayton: gosh. Cyde tangent. Rabbit hole. Careful.

[00:02:13] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh no,

[00:02:14] Cyd Holsclaw: short

[00:02:14] David Clayton: yeah. Okay. Short one. The short version would be I, um, due to my life experience, um, I developed the capacity to, um, be, uh, sensitive to, uh, behavior. And, um, became very, very good at that, say the least. So be able to read people, uh, and situations and sense, uh, very accurately.

[00:02:44] Geoff Holsclaw: call that street smarts in the U S do you have like a little British kind of way of saying that?

[00:02:49] David Clayton: the trade name is, is, is, well, I'm not saying I'm a natural, but there are the definitions of naturals who are really accurate. Naturally I could, it is an in depth thing. It would be, you know, going into the science of developmental trauma and how that can be processed. So, so I took my difficult experience and trained in different ways.

And then became a friend of mine pointed me towards behavior analysis. So I trained in behavior analysis to be able to forensically codify exactly what I was noticing. And then more recently, I've codified my, uh, facial recognition and microexpression training with David, uh, well, Dr. David Matsumoto, um, who is a great guy and great training.

Um, so. So I, I, I'm able to have the natural inclination towards noticing, which is obviously a key thing in spiritual direction. Um, but now I'm able to actually codify that at quite a high level. Um, after further training. Oh,

[00:03:58] Cyd Holsclaw: is just fascinating. And I just, for the, for our listeners, you know, we talk a lot about attachment and how um, survival strategies often become the greatest gifts that we have as well when they're sort of redeemed and honed. And when they, when they, When it becomes one of the options we have available to us rather than the only option we have available to us.

And so I just love hearing how out of, out of the difficult background you've had, this gift emerges of being able to really pay attention to people's behavior and then being able to use that in a way that is a gift to the world. So I just want to celebrate that, that I think it's so great the way that God works out of the painful places of our life to offer, you know, good work to the world.

So, I'm really glad that your trauma has become something that can be offered in a redemptive way to the world. And I know that there's a lot of work behind that. So thank you for doing that work.

[00:04:59] David Clayton: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. We could, we could do a whole podcast on that stuff. I can

[00:05:05] Cyd Holsclaw: I, yeah, we'll have to put a pin in that one.

[00:05:08] David Clayton: Yeah.

The Role of Spiritual Direction in Leadership

[00:05:09] Geoff Holsclaw: So you talked a little bit about your behavioral analysis training, but I think before that you were trained in spiritual direction as well as other like kind of contemplative and ascetic traditions. Could you kind of fill out some of that, some of that background for you too?

[00:05:22] David Clayton: So, uh, I'm, I, I'm a of quite, uh, um, an odd experience I entered into when I was training in a evangelical charismatic Bible college. I was graced, uh, in that kind of. energize spiritual place, you know, with everything happening to enter into, um, quantum apathetic contemplation really. And it was quite lucky to have a professor who was, I'd, I'd studied, um, for the Lawrence of the resurrection and his work, the practice and presence of God, uh, as part of my text.

Um, but then, um, I ended up in the cloud of unknowing. I mean, most people were reading on, you know, in Christ Jesus and I was studying the cloud of unknown with a professor and trying to understand what was going off in my life. So, I mean, this is donkey's years ago. So, so that kind of put me on a different trajectory to most.

Um, and then there's been this ongoing plot of prayer. Um, so prayer would be my central thing. If you say, if anything, what is your life about? Well, it's prayer and, and knowing God. Um, so in a way to use the classic, uh, review of moving towards knowing God in the beatific vision, uh, towards full union with God to use the, again, the sort of more Catholic language.

But, so. Uh, I, through circumstance, ended up being introduced to spiritual direction. I ended up, um, working with some great people and living in a retreat house and then going off to train, uh, with an internship with the Jesuits in England. So I did, uh, did my, um, I can, I made the exercises, uh, and then, uh, completed, Oh, not complete fully, but, uh, did, uh, uh, an amount of internship with the, the, the, um, Jesuit, uh, spirituality center.

And, um, Then went on from there and continued to study. I had a monastery not so far away and I read and developed. So I've studied quite a lot of historical spirituality. So, you know, um, Francis de Sars, Pauline, uh, Tanqueray, all of the, the kind of greats in the Catholic tradition has got into studying the Orthodox pattern and studied the Philokalia, uh, Uh, and traveled around that and ended up training in Greece briefly in hesychasm practice.

Uh, and then went on more recently, coming up to speed, because it's a huge, again, and you know, people say I need to write a book, but anyway. Um,

[00:08:13] Geoff Holsclaw: always telling people to

[00:08:15] David Clayton: Yeah.

[00:08:15] Geoff Holsclaw: Cause I'm always like, that sounds interesting. That could be a book. So,

[00:08:19] David Clayton: So more recently spending three years training with the, uh, Descal's Carmelite order, um, doing spiritual direction and spiritual transformation training in Oxford. Um, so that's associated with the, uh, tourism, uh, Pontifical University in Rome. So I've come away with a diploma and an extra embedded year.

That I embedded the spiritual practice because St. John of the Cross is one of my, um, passions, you know, uh, so, so, you know, formally trained in, in a few bits and bobs, but, uh, informally, yeah, informally, uh, work study prayer for quite a few decades puts you in

[00:09:08] Cyd Holsclaw: So how did you, so how did you come to this place of really wanting or noticing the need for spiritual leaders to have a deep. Uh, sense of Well, yeah. What, tell me how that emerged.

[00:09:25] David Clayton: Well, spiritual leaders to have a deep sense, yeah, spiritual leaders to have depth, uh, I think is, is one way we could look at it because there is a, uh, an outward achievement, statistical criteria that people seem to lean more into. Uh, and go all person is successful if there are a lot, a lot of people in, in whatever they're involved in.

You know, if the numbers are big, then therefore it's successful. Whereas the criteria, if you look at things like Thomas at campus, imitation of Christ, success is a very different picture there. You know, it's deep humility, deep sanctification, deep devotion, deep love, really. So, um, I, I, I'm an alongCyde person.

I've always been alongCyde person. This is, you know, in discerning my election as a spiritual director, it's always been made clear that I've always been alongCyde people and raised up leaders and been a bit of a king maker creating a few CEOs and experts in different fields. Um, but, uh, it's noticing it's, it's, it's being alongCyde those people and going.

They, there's something missing there and not going, you know, not judgmental or critical, but actually discerning and going, um, you know, and I found, I suppose the, the opportunity has been there for leaders to come to me and to have conversation. And then, Then it's realized. It's them that's realizing.

It's not me going, Oh, you need that. That's not, you know, it's not a blanket thing from board. This is more of an organic realization within the individuals and within their circumstance. That there is something more. There is something better. There can be a deeper process. you know, it can be very difficult cause you get the, the mimetic behaviors of our tribe knows what we're doing.

We have it right. And I'm particularly in certain, I'm being careful what I say here, but in certain areas of, uh, ecclesiology,

[00:11:31] Geoff Holsclaw: we're in America. We don't know anything about tribalized denomination infighting. We have been delivered from that. And so thankfully the new world has become more sanctified rather than the old world there in England. But so, but carry on, carry on brother. Yeah. I was just kidding. Of course. Well, I, So I want to keep talking about, uh, kind of the inner life of the leaders and kind of the challenges. Um, but alongCyde that, like, so you were talking about this, this great expertise, um, of your kind of personal formation and, uh, spiritual direction, but also the kind of monastic or the ascetic kind of traditions that are feeding into that, that.

Is a real rich experience, which I love, uh, that you bring to this conversation. Cause I think, and I don't know if this is true in England, but in America, there's a huge explosion and maybe I'm just finally getting caught up to it, but there's a huge explosion to, uh, of spiritual direction, a spiritual direction, training of people receiving direction, at least in the evangelical world, uh, that I've been mostly a part of.

So the low church kind of, you know, uh, Moving into these kind of like more contemplative practices or kind of liturgical kind of ways of being. Um, but I think a lot of times we don't bring that kind of depth of experience and training that maybe you bring. Uh, and so I think, so, so the question I think.

Understanding Spiritual Direction: Definitions and Depth

[00:12:57] Geoff Holsclaw: Maybe that we could like kind of talk about is maybe what is spiritual direction and then how can, um, what is the hope for the formation of leaders? And maybe we could talk about not just, um, church leaders and movement pioneers, but also, you know, corporate leaders, uh, and then, and then we'll kind of get onto that, like, um, how might we be getting off track with this explosion of.

Talking about spiritual direction. Also, maybe there's some things to be aware of, but what can we, can we go to that, like, what is spiritual direction? Uh, and to kind of just start there as you understand it, right? I know you're not speaking for the whole of history and, but as you understand

[00:13:32] David Clayton: yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a vast thing and I think you, you, you've nailed a really important point that there is this, uh, voluminous explosion of things being called spiritual direction, um, which is okay that that's great as long as they are bearing transformative kingdom dynamic. when it becomes deformative as the Carmelites would say, then there's the question mark.

So for me, and again, in this context, otherwise I would go on to the classic definition of it's this, this, and this, and it does this and that, that, that, um, it, it, it's, it's that conversation. It's that, you know, the three chairs in the room where the person is engaging with, and I'm going to say, because of, potential, you know, deus non deus conversation going on, um, with the higher power with that, which is more so, and finding out who they are in relation to that and who the absolute is in relation to them.

So I'll use the term absolute and God as a kind of construct. So that we're not getting into particularly religious. I'm trying to keep it as broad as possible. So it's really about the person's movement towards understanding their absolute reality in response to an absolute, you know, I mean, psychotherapy would say it takes an absolute to observe an absolute person.

Uh, and I think that's David Joplin who writes on that. But, um, So, so if you were to use God language, you know, it is the conversation between the person and God and then finding out who they are in relation to God and who God is in relation to them. And it's so it's relational, it's conversational, it's, it's not a self improvement, but it's not just talking.

You know, I mean often I've heard the definition people go in spirit. So so counseling starts here Psychotherapy's here and then spiritual direction is down here because it gets into the deepest of the deep and doesn't look at the problems It's not a problem solving reality. It's it's a comprehension So, so in the midst of that, one might realize, Oh my goodness me, I've, I've, I've, I've got this, this, this, and this wrong with me by psychotherapeutic definitions, according to certain medical manuals.

Um, and yet they're known that they are a love child of God and that there is something innately perfect in who they actually are. And that's okay.

[00:16:28] Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

[00:16:29] David Clayton: How they outwork that in interpersonal realities in society is something potentially slightly different, you know, and how they cope, to use the psychological term of coping, is another conversation and that would be, you know, referred across.

Uh, and I, I, I mean, even yesterday I was, somebody came to me and we're having a deep conversation and I go, and you need, you need to take that to, to, uh, either some good counseling or psychotherapy to, to walk that through cause you, it's snagging you, you're struggling with that. You need, you're aware of it.

You've named it. You need to be able to take that somewhere to process it. So does, is that okay to work on that basis? So it's that inter interaction between. the absolute and the individual in some form of conversational relationship. Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:28] Geoff Holsclaw: I, I was looking at, uh, your talk, uh, you know, and you use the word conversion, uh, you know, I'm a good evangelical, so I love that language. But, uh, I thought you used that word kind of in, as part of your kind of understanding of spiritual direction, uh, as, uh, the, who God is to, to me and who I am to God, uh, That's not a static kind of thing.

It's a process where I'm continually growing in that. And so that is a sense of conversion, transformation of, of union with God. Um, so is that right or is

[00:18:02] David Clayton: I, I would.

[00:18:02] Geoff Holsclaw: you not like using that

[00:18:03] David Clayton: No, that's, that's, that's fine. Covisham or Benedictine thing. I love diving into that. Um, I think, I think if we would take the theological premise that it is impossible to end. Uh, our understanding in God, it is a continual movement towards and a continual process of growing and understanding and comprehension because you're talking absolute, we're, we're, we're in time, we're in entropy, even worse, you know, time and space dissimilating, you know, whereas this absolute is something which is beyond, beyond.

So there was, we can't necessarily comprehend it fully. But we can move towards it and become more like it. And that would be the process of conversion. To becoming more like that which we move towards. And in this case, you know, Jesus, Judeo Christian thing, we're moving towards becoming like Jesus. You know, according to scripture.

If you're in that framework. So, um, Th that would be the thing that it is. And, and I like the way you look at it. It is act, it's an ongoing process. It, it doesn't end, you know, some people go, oh, I've, I'm, I've got there. I'm super spiritual, and I go, well done, . I'm still on my way day by day, turning up, plodding along.

You know, it's, and, and I think that helps us in our humility and in and our rationale that, that actually there are things way beyond our comprehension. Um, and engaging, you know, when we start to think about if God is, we use the Judeo Christian thing. So, so if God is beyond the universe, as he created the universe and we can't even comprehend the size of the universe, it just keeps, you know, scientists keep going, Oh, I can't get that.

I can't get that. You know? Um, and we are. Let's be, let's be clear. You know, we're on a tiny little planet with a dot, you know, which lasts probably, I don't know, 70, 80, 90, 100 years, maybe on a planet, which is in turn going to be burned up by its sun in the solar system at some point in the future, which is part of a galaxy, which is spinning away, which is part of billions of other galaxies in this huge creation.

And God is easily one step beyond all that.

[00:20:24] Geoff Holsclaw: Mm,

[00:20:24] David Clayton: We, we automatically come to, Oh, there's more to this. There's more to life. There, there is, there is something more. So therefore character, integrity, love, uh, all these depths, uh, start to be draw to the four. More in the process. And I think spiritual direction in, in, in using that kind of term helps.

Uh, so it's, it's quite necessary in this current age, I think, you know, really necessary. Yeah.

[00:21:00] Cyd Holsclaw: like, I like to talk about spiritual direction as I, I like the way you're talking about it. All right. And I, I like to talk about it in the sense of it's, it's, uh, the process of being able to discern the invitations of in your language, the absolute, or I would say, right, the invitations of God, and then, you know, being able to discern how I will respond to that.

Right. And so it's the sense of the invitations are always there. The invitations to notice you're part of something bigger, the invitations to receive the love in the midst of the mess, um, the invitations to be known and to be loved. And then the response of, Continuing to lean and orient your whole life towards this pathway of becoming more like Jesus, becoming unified with God.

Um, and so if spiritual direction is not doing that, then. I don't know what it is, right? It's, um, and so that's the spiritual. So sometimes when I hear conversations about what people are calling spiritual direction, and this is again, no judgment or insult, at least people are having conversations and I'm glad about that.

Um, but sometimes when the conversation is about, You know, more about myself and what I'm wanting to do and, and sort of what I'm noticing, but there, it doesn't ever come back to who is God, what is God inviting me into and how am I discerning a response to that? Then I don't know what we're doing together. So. That, and I hear you sort of with that same trajectory of there is a goal, um, and the goal is to become unified with the only one who is truly real. And so that pathway and that's, that's the journey. Yeah,

[00:22:58] David Clayton: Can I just drop in the word ontological? That, I mean, you, you know. The only one that is real, truly real. That's just beautiful. That is just beautiful. I'm nicking that for me,

[00:23:11] Cyd Holsclaw: It's yours.

[00:23:13] David Clayton: but this, this all points to an ontological reality, a deepening of becoming, um, you know, Ignatius would say the margins, the more at each point, at each step, at each thing in it, and, you know, and, and, and if we are moving in that, then it is ad miuriam de glorem for the glory of God.

Uh, the motivation isn't like you say, the motivation isn't about, uh, uh, I want, you know, uh, I can, I can tell so many jokes about what people have said is rude. Oh, Oh, what's your desire? Well, I want it. Yeah. Okay. And it all moves down to the actual deeper desire of really knowing God union with God, you know, but I think I just, just to frame it in onto ontological forms in becoming.

Because I think that, that's core to spiritual direction, you know, the conversation we could say and take out the spiritual direction, you know, and accompany and becoming, you know, and use completely different language, uh, emphasizing the ontological in that, you know, so, but yeah, no, I, I resonate exactly with what you're saying,

[00:24:24] Cyd Holsclaw: yeah. And that's why Geoff and I, you know, spend so much time and energy talking about our attachment with God, because if we're living out of a protective, defensive, insecure posture, It's, it's very difficult to find and discern those invitations from the one who loves, from the one who is stable, from the one who is secure.

And so that's why so much of our life is oriented around how do we repair the ruptures in our attachment with God so that we can be on this journey and towards becoming. Yeah.

[00:25:02] Geoff Holsclaw: So this is so great. I love this whole conversation. Um, so I wanna kinda mind some of the depth that, uh, David brings, uh, you know, so I wanna bring up this, uh, sayings of the desert father. And I wanna talk maybe a little bit Ignatius, and then St. John of the Cross is, is kind of, is continuing this conversation.

Uh, and kind of shifting then to, uh. To then leaders and movement leaders and pioneers is I think you dropped this into, uh, your talk, um, I think at the beginning. 

The Importance of Inner Life for Leaders

[00:25:31] Geoff Holsclaw: So I'd love to hear why, and then kind of what it stirred up, but you said, uh, that there's a saying inscribed, uh, uh, Isaac the Syrian quote, it is better to acquire purity of heart than to convert, convert a whole nation of heathens.

End quote, so it's better to have purity of heart than to go out and do amazing deeds. Why did you kind of throw that out at the beginning of your, uh, talk? What were you kind of hoping to stir up? I know it gets at this depth in the ontology and all this stuff, but

[00:26:01] David Clayton: What a great challenge. Uh, so, uh, context is everything that I was speaking to a lot of activists who, um, recognize the importance of evangelism in their context of, of, um, offering the, the, the reality of salvation through Jesus Christ. Uh, in, in their ministry. So they don't necessarily recognize the importance of knowing God at depth in their ministry to enable them to offer something which is at depth to others.

So there's, there, there was a cultural reality to that. And, and, um, Using Evelyn, I think I ended on Evelyn Underhill talking about the, the, the church doesn't need, um, new ideas, new gadgets, whatnots. Uh, but needs true evangelists, it needs converted individuals, you know, and Wesley points to that, you know, and I use that in that talk as well.

Um, Give me, you know, a hundred men who care not a straw about sin, you know, and, and that will convert England. You know, it's that depth of reality, that depth of soul. And I saw some of that in, in some of the revival movements that, that I experienced back in the day and some characters lives who were really impacted in that.

So it's not a, not a, or no. You know, this, this, this area, the high church thinks this, the middle church thinks this. There is something consistently across the way. So I was speaking into what, what state is your heart, you know, and doing the prophetic thing and calling to repentance really from wherever anyone was at, that they could go deeper with God and to call them deep to God because that's important.

They, they will stand, you know, in their theology. you know, and, and the Christian kind of premise, they will stand at one point before God in judgment and be accountable for their lives. Uh, I shared recently, you know, to bring in the leadership thing, talking to, um, spiritual directors and clergy, uh, from Anglican Methodist and other, other different sort of denominations.

Um, the, the point of,

 I don't know where it is. I'm trying to write where it is. So we'll just skip the Bible reference. That's okay. But the Bible talks about, um, do not be teachers. Don't hastily become teachers. Because you'll be more accountable. You'll be doubly accountable before God.

[00:29:13] Geoff Holsclaw: Right?

[00:29:14] David Clayton: So I said to them, well, if you think about that, so if you're going to be spiritually directing clergy and you're further, you have to be further down the road than the clergy spiritually, we'll use that term spiritually, you know, ascetic theology and mystical theology, depends how you want to define it, you're going to be even more accountable than the clergy.

So don't pick up this mantle and going. You know, so, so in really what I'm, what I think I, I mean, it's some time ago since I did that. It's nearly a year ago. Gosh, time

[00:29:49] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Mm-hmm

[00:29:50] David Clayton: Hopefully I'll be on next year's. Who knows? So, uh, the, the, the point is to look at the heart. Where are these people in their hearts?

Are they, you know, is it just activity? 'cause ge I think again, in scripture, you know, Jesus points to, you know, oh, you did this, you raised the dead, you spoke in tongues, you said prophecies, you did that, you

[00:30:13] Geoff Holsclaw: But I didn't know you. You didn't know me. Yeah.

[00:30:17] David Clayton: So I, I think it was that kind of premise. The point, 'cause part of not part, a lot of my work in all of the different sectors is, is going from.

Presented to actual

[00:30:31] Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

[00:30:31] David Clayton: and going, well, this is what's presented and this could be statistically correct and economically correct and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. However, there's an actual depth. There's a reality, there's a truth somewhere embedded in that, which, you know, and, and to use, uh, a phrase, my, uh, a friend coined for me, I tend to get to the heart of the matter, the matter of the heart.

I tend to put my finger on the pulse and, and to look at that. So what I was trying to do was draw that to the four so that with a not looking at the outward presented, we're successful. We've got lots of people in our church. We've got this growing. We have a beautiful pyramid scheme going and our organization is yeah, great sales technique.

Uh, you know, great elicitation and all that and marketing manipulation. Um, yeah. rather than we've got the lost, the broken, we're putting them back together. We've got people who are knowing, knowing God personally. Uh, so it was that kind of emphasis. Is that, is that okay? It's, I wandered a bit on that, but, uh, I hope that's

[00:31:44] Geoff Holsclaw: good. Well, I want to throw this to Cyd. 

Character vs. Competency in Leadership

[00:31:46] Geoff Holsclaw: So in our American context, we often talk about like character and competencies is that, um, you know, we want to focus on character more than competencies, but oftentimes churches and movements, they just see someone who has high competencies and they elevate them.

They get results, they get things done. Um, and then, and then, you know, if something doesn't work, Bad happens. And we say, Oh, their character didn't match their competencies. Right. Um, and so, so I'll throw this to Cyd. Do you feel like this conversation is getting at that? Or do you feel like there's something that's even deeper that we've been talking about in this?

[00:32:19] Cyd Holsclaw: Okay. Ask me that question again in a different way.

[00:32:24] Geoff Holsclaw: So are we talking about character? This like when it comes to the purity of the heart or the matters of the heart, are we actually talking about something that's even deeper there? Just cause you've done, you've worked with a lot of leaders also. Uh, and so I'm just, you know, I'm just throwing out ways we typically talk and wondering, is that.

[00:32:40] Cyd Holsclaw: Well, I guess it depends on what we mean by character, right? So I think you and I sometimes talk about how character is the default. Like it's, it's who you are when you're living from your defaults, the things that are automatic. And so if that's what we're talking about, when we say character, Then, yeah, I mean, there's so much pressure on leaders, um, to perform and to show, to demonstrate competencies, competency.

That's the stuff that's measurable. Um, and I think there's a lot of, um, shame or hiddenness around the default patterns that leaders know they have and they recognize and they see, um, but they don't feel the freedom or the spaces to be able to talk about those or unpack those or when those become clear.

Immediately their leadership is questioned. So I would say those character that default pattern is coming out of the ways our nervous systems are shaped. And that comes out of attachment that comes out of first formation that comes out of all kinds of stuff. So it's a formation issue, um, and that requires.

Lots of repair and repatterning and so I I guess it depends on what we mean when we say character so if that's what we mean, I think we're going deep enough if

[00:34:03] Geoff Holsclaw: do you think, David?

[00:34:04] David Clayton: uh, I think, and this is drawing on a current conversation. So I'm just writing on this. So I'm not going to share too much, but, um, there is, let, let me, let me do it story wise. So, uh, a, I'll use a name. So in a, in a lecture a couple of years ago, Sarah Coakley came out with a really interesting comment saying, um, If, if, uh, church leaders and church lay were more virtuous, we wouldn't need, uh, so much safeguarding, a

[00:34:39] Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:34:42] David Clayton: And that stayed with me and I've done quite a bit of work around that. And then looking more recently, particularly in some of the other points I'm developing, um, There is a response to, and particularly I'll use safeguarding because it's a hot topic in the UK at the moment. Um, there's a response to bringing legislation and law rather than moral responsibility, so therefore character.

[00:35:12] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:35:14] David Clayton: The second, to develop character, like you say Cyd, was, was, Well, requires formation and therefore is a much harder way than just putting a group of rules in the way And if we follow these rules and everything would be hunky dory because it just doesn't work Because because that only works with a certain amount of humans um Behaviorally just rules don't work work.

Law doesn't necessarily work. It's a social constraint and that's fine, but that's external constraint, not internal change. And I think the premise that we're talking about now is internal change is actual character, actual integrity, actual living towards virtuous, which is the whole point of spiritual direction.

If we can use that term, it's the process of helping people funnel their formation towards that, which is good. that which is better and to not try and heal them but to walk with them on their healing journey. Transformation, let's not use healing because that sounds like, oh they've been broken, we're all broken, you know, I mean I think I even quoted Chase use using his four points in in the, uh, in the talk, um, about humans being broken, not wanting, hiding behind masks, um, not wanting to be seen behind their masks and, um, And then, uh, a formative, like you said, you know, two naught, two, uh, naugh to seven or naught 14, depending on critical thinking.

So, um, yeah, I think that that nails it, you know, really it, the, the, it it's either the human being does the, does the work or doesn't do the work. And if they don't do the work, then, you know, law is the, uh, uh, legislative processes, the control external constraint to keep them into an ordered behavior. But if they were actually good and actually knew God.

She's that all the absolute, you know, days of non dayism, you know, um, that's the difference. Actual change. Actual. character. Um, that doesn't mean they're a perfect individual. I mean, I'm just, just writing a talk for, for, uh, uh, uh, Moreland's college in the UK. Hopefully I'm doing the talk with them next year.

And, and it's based on developing imperfection and looking at how, uh, Maslow's. viewpoint of psychology is about divergence away from, um, a point of perfection. And I'm going, well, is that a really a healthy way? You know, I agree with Maslow on that in some ways when we view people, because we're not viewing character.

We'll be viewing certain coping behaviors anyway. So yes.

Final Thoughts and Future Conversations

[00:38:07] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, it sounds like we could have many more, uh, episodes to talk about. We didn't even, we're kind of getting to our time right now. We didn't even get to, uh,

[00:38:16] David Clayton: Oops.

[00:38:16] Cyd Holsclaw: We didn't talk about John of the cross

[00:38:18] Geoff Holsclaw: and John on the cross. Uh, I feel like we probably should just put a, something on the calendar where we could talk about, um, You know, St.

Ignatius and Ignatian spirituality, you know, cause he was a pioneer of a movement that has now lasted over 500 years, you know, and it, it has a very, and he kind of updated or brought spiritual direction to the lady, you know, he's kind of the figure that has brought. All of us evangelicals into the fold for even thinking about spiritual directions.

So it maybe would, uh, be great to have a whole case study on just on kind of the birth and the process of, of even that movement, just to kind of help us think through it. Um, maybe we could find some other, uh, Ignatian experts and kind of do that. Sounds, that sounds pretty fun. Cyd or David, do you have any kind of last thoughts to bring it kind of together?

Or otherwise we can just keep talking for

[00:39:08] David Clayton: Yeah. Yeah. I think

[00:39:09] Geoff Holsclaw: not what we should do.

[00:39:10] David Clayton: I, I,

[00:39:11] Cyd Holsclaw: Well, I would go ahead

[00:39:12] David Clayton: go on. Said, no, I

[00:39:13] Geoff Holsclaw: Go ahead,

[00:39:13] Cyd Holsclaw: No, I was just going to say, I think underneath this whole conversation is, you know, I want to return back to something you said at the beginning, David, which I think is a highlight of the Ignatian exercises too, is that perfection is not the, is not the goal. What is the goal is, is union, um, with God and that, that union means sort of a radical acceptance of all that is, you know, God.

Not right within us as we are loved by the God who loves us in spite of all of that. And then that love is what transforms. Right. And so I think, you know, I'm always wanting to come back to, I think one thing that the, the evangelical church, and I don't know, like shame is something we're really good at.

Right. And I think that's why there are so many leaders that are so afraid to talk about. Those things that are unhealed, um, because of the shame that comes along with it, because of that expectation of you're a leader, you should be better. Um, but I think I just want to sort of say again that, you know, This whole life is a preparation for the union that will become a reality in the next life.

And so that sense of we're on our way to the next life in the way that we're being shaped and formed for union with God. And that union includes. A now element of we can be unified with God now, even in the things that are still unhealed and broken. And so that sense of being able to allow God to meet us where we are without that expectation of, I can only be met by God when, um, so that's just something I would want to say and as a making sure that that's an emphasis in this whole conversation, that perfection is not the goal.

[00:40:58] Geoff Holsclaw: You have any last thoughts, David?

[00:41:03] David Clayton: whoa, thumbs up to that. Definitely. That's,

[00:41:07] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, welcome to my

[00:41:08] David Clayton: yeah. No.

[00:41:09] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, we'll just let Cyd summarize

[00:41:11] David Clayton: a blessing. That's beautiful. I, I, I think I, I'd just add the comment. I, I. that, you know, the recognition of the migration of souls across the different denominations, uh, is a, is a social reality. You know, when there's an economic downturn, there's a movement in towards the apophatic, uh, and the kind of Carmelite kind of prayer.

Um, and that's been happening. There's been a lot of people going over to the Orthodox from the evangelical Cyde of things. There's been a lot more evangelical seeking depth. and hungering for death, because there isn't security. So, so in a way, all these difficulties point us towards exactly what you've talked about, you know, that knowledge of, um, God, that, that knowledge of being, being loved, being safe, you know, even if it isn't safe.

Uh, I mean, the

[00:42:03] Cyd Holsclaw: mm,

[00:42:04] David Clayton: tradition is in the mystical tradition, which we can probably do a whole set on. Um, You know, there's very much a leaning into that now and an interest in mysticism Which is all based, you know, it's called the science of love and it's not called the science of love for any Reason it is the science of love.

It is the the reality of what is the meaning of being a human being? Well, it's to move towards You know this this and that and you could take different religious frameworks and I'm being cautious today And just not because we're not Specifically and using generic language, but you know, I think that M what you said was really the emphasis of what it's about.

And, and leaders, you're not just leaders, everybody, everybody needs to lean into that, um, actual becoming through, through engaging with, um, God absolute and, and, and recognizing that acceptance, that love, that, that connection,

[00:43:06] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:43:07] David Clayton: So everybody needs to learn to pray, so they need spiritual directors of some form.

[00:43:13] Geoff Holsclaw: There you go. And the goal is, you know, as the title of this podcast is attaching to God, there's lots of different ways union with God, you know, fear of God, like there's all sorts of different ways of speaking about that, but letting that, the purity of heart, uh, as you mentioned in the quote from Isaac, the Syrian, um, so that all of our activities.

Overflow from that love of God and love of others, rather than, you know, just having to do lists and, you know, growth charts and, you know, statistics and, you know, metrics, you know, for how the church is doing, but rather can we get to the depth of our hearts, uh, and the conversion that is the continual conversion that's necessary for all of us.

Well, thank you for taking some time to be with us. Where can people connect with you or follow kind of some of the things you're up to and

[00:44:02] David Clayton: Okay, so different hats, different world. Um, my email address is the best. Connection which is dclayton1 at hotmail. com, that's a generic one, but, um, from a behavior and analyst point of view, I have a website relating to, um, that which is the Monos Collective, which is a developing project, um, utilizing, uh, monastic principles, shall we say.

Uh, in impacting economics, education, and everything else, every other field that we can network across as the monastics used to do. I also have a website, which is, uh, I forgot. It's something like davidclayton. com. monasticspirituality. wordpress.

[00:44:51] Cyd Holsclaw: Geoff will put it in the show notes. He'll figure it

[00:44:53] David Clayton: So, uh, but yeah, uh, does email is, is the easiest and, and I suppose if you look at the Monos Collective, be interested in people's thoughts on that as a developing project, as you move towards what would be best, what would be admirium de glorium as Ignatius would say.

[00:45:10] Cyd Holsclaw: Hmm.

[00:45:12] Geoff Holsclaw: For the greater glory of God. Amen. Well, again, this is the Attaching to God podcast produced by Embodied Faith. Please like, and subscribe and share this, uh, to whoever you think, uh, might benefit from listening. And David, thank you so much for

[00:45:27] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Thank you, David.

[00:45:28] David Clayton: thank you. It's been, it's been a really great conversation. And really enjoyed it. God bless you both.

[00:45:33] Cyd Holsclaw: You too. I look forward to the next one.

[00:45:36] David Clayton: Indeed. Indeed.

[00:45:37] Geoff Holsclaw: let's get it on the calendar. 

Um,