100 Attaching to God in the Wild (guest Jeff McMullen)

What does attaching to God look like in one's personal life, life as a counselor, and life of faith? That's what we are talking about today.

Our guest is Jeff (spelling?) McMullen. Jeff is the Executive Director of Life Counseling Center and an Assistant Pastor at Chapelgate Presbyterian Church. As a counselor, he is particularly interested in working with ministry clients struggling with anxiety and identity issues.

Check out the DMIN in Spiritual Formation and Relational Neuroscience here. 

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Transcript

Introduction to the Podcast and Guest

[00:00:14] Geoff Holsclaw: Welcome to the attachment to God podcast with Jeff and Sid Holzclaw, where we are exploring a neuroscience informed spiritual formation produced by embodied faith. And today we're kind of starting a new, maybe series, uh, of interviews and conversations about attachment in the wild, where we have people on who have had their own, uh, attachment journey. Uh, and are kind of learning some of this language and kind of seeking to understand a little bit about their own personal or spiritual journeys. And today we have Jeff McMullin on with us. He is the executive director of the Life Counseling Center and an assistant pastor at Chapel Gate. Presbyterian church as a counselor. He is particularly interested in working with ministry clients, struggling with anxiety and identity issues. He likes to use story narrative to explore how we can experience freedom by understanding our adoption into God's family. And of course, that language of adoption. Dovetails, I think pretty nice with, uh, the language and understanding of attachment.

Jeff McMullin's Background and Work

[00:01:15] Geoff Holsclaw: Jeff, thanks for being on with us today.

[00:01:17] Jeff McMullen: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Jeff. Nice to see you, Sid.

[00:01:20] Geoff Holsclaw: Sid, how was that as an introduction? I just made that all up. The attachment in the wild, everybody was

razzing me because I'm usually so prepared and I have everything written out as a script. And now we just kind of made up this title of attachment in the wild. And I just made that up. So I would like some ratings.

I would like some feedback, positive, positive feedback, uh, preferably about how that open went. Sid, you first, and then over to Jeff.

[00:01:42] Cyd Holsclaw: yeah. And I think, I think that was very, that was pretty smooth, smooth and silky.

[00:01:47] Geoff Holsclaw: on to the actual conversation, Jeff, could you just describe what you do, uh, and this is going to be confusing because there's two Jeff's on the podcast. We will try to sort it out. I think the transcripting device is going to get super confused,

but you, we could call you J and G.

Jane, that actually might work.

So, but, uh, Jeff,

could you describe 

Journey into Counseling and Personal Struggles

[00:02:08] Geoff Holsclaw: your work at life counseling center and maybe a little bit like how you got into doing what you do?

[00:02:14] Jeff McMullen: Yeah, sure. Definitely. Um, no. So I've been with Life Counseling Center just about five years. Uh, said yes to this position two days before the shutdown for COVID. So thought that was going to be two weeks and then it wound up being Uh, you know, through the summer and we transitioned in the summer. Um, but we're a, uh, we're a small counseling center West of Baltimore, uh, where we really seek to, to bring the healing, renewal and peace of Jesus in our counseling room.

Um, we're Christ centered where we really want people as they come in, as working through their suffering to meet the one true counselor, Jesus. Relationship based. Um, You know, there's a lot of great techniques out there in the world, uh, with in, in the counseling world to walk with people, um, to help them.

But we as a counseling center are really person oriented and we, we really want to walk with people through what they're struggling with. Um, we're really one beggar telling another beggar where we found bread in Jesus. We're clinically informed. Um, that means that we, uh, We see kind of the great plethora that psychology brings, uh, to bear in life, but we want to use those in discerning ways in light of what scripture says and help people, um, as embodied souls to find, um, rest and healing in Christ alone.

So we have a basic knowledge of some of the larger modalities as we counsel people from, um, from a biblical perspective. So yeah, I don't know if that's helpful, but uh, I got into this. Um, you know, I think to go back. Um, Life Counseling Center was started by Chapel Gay Presbyterian Church. We're independent now.

Um, we've been that way since 2018 and um Part of it was the guy who started the counseling center was my youth pastor, and he was the first one ever in college that I shared my story with. And it was during that time that I share, I was just really struggling through some shameful things. And for him to hear my story and for him not to reject me and neither minimize what I went through, had gone through, um, was one of the greatest gifts ever and kind of sent me on a trajectory to say, okay.

What does it mean to walk with people in this intense way? Um, I got married. I knew I had a call to go to, to, to be in ministry. And my wife and I went to seminary and, uh, I really kind of thought I needed to do pastoral ministry, but I always had an interest in counseling and kind of always been on reading and took several classes at seminary.

But really what kind of set me on this trajectory was, um, in 2009, my wife and I, um, 2008, my wife and I and kids had gone overseas and we didn't last very long. And we came back in 2009, kind of flat on our faces. And what was, what was really, it was a really hard season in our lives. Um, and my wife was like, Hey, you really got to work on some stuff here.

And I, uh, I wound up in a counseling room as a pastor. And. You know, it was fine to send people because I did pastoral ministry before I went overseas And and overseas to send other people to counseling But for me as a counselor as a pastor myself to really say hey, I I am in deep need here I need a change to sit with a with a really gifted counselor that I didn't realize at the time how gifted he was Um was a big part of my healing journey.

And, uh, while in, while living in Philly where I was doing counseling and working in a home office, working at a home office or remissions, uh, uh, agency, then, um, I shoved, uh, Two year degree into six years and was working on my, uh, my, uh, master's in counseling and graduated in 2018. So, um, it's kind of giving me a real heart for people, uh, who are struggling.

I know we all struggle. Um, I am sympathetic to, especially to those in ministry, to the complexity by which they face things. And I too wrestle with that now as I am a pastor and a counselor. And, um, yeah, so we, 10 part time counselors, I think that's right, um, to about anywhere between 150 to 200 appointments a month.

Um, and, uh, it's a real joy to work with people that are on our team.

[00:06:56] Cyd Holsclaw: What? First of all, a couple things stand out to me as you say that. First thing, uh, I love that you have a, a wife that loves you enough that said, Hey, you've got some stuff. Uh, and then I love that you responded to that well and that you were able to say, I I'm not just someone who refers people to counseling.

I actually need to do some of my own work. Because as you said, I think it's really hard sometimes when in contexts where pastors, or in your case, even missionaries bear the weight of that expectation of somehow you're further along, or somehow you've got yourself put together, or somehow you're in a position where you have all this wisdom to dispense.

And so to find yourself in a place where you're like, Ooh. I am broken and I have got stuff. It's, that's a moment, right? It's a moment for, and it's a moment that can go different ways. And the way that you chose to respond to that moment was to take the journey of humility and to go inward and to say, what is going on inside of me that bleeds out in my ministry?

So thank you. Yeah. That just always, I love hearing that story from people in ministry because it's not the way it always goes in that moment.

[00:08:12] Jeff McMullen: yeah. And Sid, I appreciate you saying that, you know, I think that I have a very patient wife. So I think she was saying that along the way and it took it just took a moment of Okay, I got it. There's something needs to change and she was doing some working on her own So like so it was symbiotic. Um, that's I'm really thankful for that.

[00:08:34] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. 

Understanding Attachment Styles

[00:08:35] Cyd Holsclaw: So what got you to the place where you became curious about attachment?

[00:08:39] Jeff McMullen: No, it's a great question. I mean, part of it is like, you know, you're in graduate school and you're kind of drinking from a fire hose for counseling about all these kind of different modalities. And I thought to myself, okay, attachment was one of these things that I read about briefly. And then when I was working at a private practice in Philly, um, my, um, supervisor was, uh, Hey, I was working with couples and, and he said, what if you started working through like an attachment inventory, um, as a means to kind of help couples get oriented.

And I started to work through this and, um, you know, I see a lot of overlaps like the enneagram and how do I perceive and understand and what drives me. And Jodi and I were kind of talking about this in our ministry and the like, and our lives and our marriage really. Um, And I was like, okay, what does this look like?

Um, what type of attachment style am I? Um, and I could just see this in the counseling room with people that, um, when stress comes and fear enters our hearts, right, Often, we move to self preservation and, and it makes sense as a third person in the room, but when people are doing the dance with each other, they don't understand why one another might be reacting the way they are.

Um, I don't know if that's helpful.

[00:10:09] Cyd Holsclaw: Okay. So as you started noticing, so it sounds like you noticed some things about yourself when you were working with the attachment inventory and then you also started observing things with, I assume you were working with couples at that point.

[00:10:22] Jeff McMullen: couples still do, but yeah, and just really realizing, hey, people move, like, their attachment styles come out in 3D, especially when in conflict. and, and fear and stress. And often the other spouse doesn't realize what's going on in that situation. And attachment gave some language to be able to name what is, what is the experience I'm having internally?

And what maybe do I see happening within you? Yes,

[00:10:55] Cyd Holsclaw: Okay. Yeah. And you mentioned, uh, when we had asked you ahead of time too, that you saw, you know, not a, not only was it, was it helpful in your practice, but you said it had also been really helpful in your family life, like in your marriage and with your kids. So can you speak a little bit about sort of, as you learned about your own attachment to strategies, which, you know, we like to say strategies instead of style, cause you're not stuck in it.

Um, but as you learned about your own attachment strategies, what did you, what were the indicators that helped you identify yourself as one who lives in the jungle or an anxious attachment?

Attachment in Personal and Family Life

[00:11:30] Jeff McMullen: Yeah, so I mean I I can think in most in particular most particularly in my marriage, you know my wife When we started dating and we would have conflict or stress I would smother her and I would say hey, are you okay? What's going on? What's wrong? And she's like Back up, back it on up, please. And, um, and I just thought that was normal, right?

I mean, because that's the way I lived out of that. And, or when conflict and when she was angry at me, it was like this underlying anxiety that I had. And I knew it was my anxiety, but to actually kind of enter in to say, okay, how does that impact her? That like, like what's happening within me, first of all, but then also how does that impact her?

You know, like that this is really a defensive posture. I'm not moving towards vulnerability here This is not love In that moment so to actually see that or with my kids, you know, I mean my kids, you know, we haven't Raised perfect kids. I think our kids are doing pretty good. But like when i'm stressed out about the way they're doing life They can say that I can feel this energy You You know, I have two of my three kids are more laid back than I am, you know, and my um, my and they my youngest, um Often he, my, my two older, I was out of school, uh, college now, but my younger kid, he's, you know, he's pretty chill, but he's, but he's pretty intuitive.

And I can tell if I got this angst going around, have you done your homework yet? What's going on? He can feel the impact and the energy of my own anxious attachment that I'm stressed about his circumstance. I'm trying to make sure things are right between us that he's doing things. And he's just like.

He's pretty respectful, but it's basically like, Hey, could you slow down for a moment here, dad? So,

[00:13:25] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

[00:13:27] Geoff Holsclaw: um, practical for people listening, you know, you're talking about anxious attachment style, you know, and we call that like living out of the jungle. And so you, uh, um, in relationships with an anxious, you know, not that this is exactly what you were doing, but just to fill it out, like, so if there's stress, then you want to lean into relationships.

You

want to go to your people's usually the strategies that a jungle person would, uh, Deploy,

which would be like helping, uh, process emotions and let's just get it out there.

Um, and let's make sure. And when other people, when your people are on, okay, then you're not okay. But, and I don't know where your wife's at, but you know, someone in the desert or who has an avoided attachment is like, I will let you know my feelings when I want to, if I ever get that far. Um, when I'm stressed out, I don't. Don't want to be around people. I certainly don't want to be forced to process my emotions when I don't want to. Um, and I'm in action problem solving mode and the relationships can just wait until the problems have been solved. Like, so those are kind of, I'm not saying that's exactly your marriage, right?

But you know,

that's 

[00:14:33] Jeff McMullen: a lot of truth to that.

[00:14:33] Geoff Holsclaw: two, um,

[00:14:35] Cyd Holsclaw: Whose marriage are you describing, Jeff?

[00:14:37] Geoff Holsclaw: Uh, which which Jeff are you talking to right now? I don't know. Um, so, but

that's, so that's kind of that, that energy,

so the jungle energy gets deployed and then you

have like a desert resistance to that energy and it can grow even into like resentment after a while. So that's how these kind of like relationships, you know, I think that. So you're saying like, that's happens in your marriage, but you also can see that once you have these categories, you're like, Oh, I see that happening in clients. I was just talking with someone who took our cohort, um, a while ago, maybe the same time you did Jeff.

Uh, and she works in the NICU as an occupational therapist, you know? So she's like, All of the families that come in with children and infants for, you know, critical healthcare issues, they're all triggered into their attachment survival strategies. Like they're all like high level. Uh, and so she's just actually kind of thinking about attachment, um, in the hospital context and how can we care for the parents, um, a little bit better, um, knowing that these strategies are being deployed.

So anyhow, I just wanted to fill that out just kind of a little bit with some of the language there.

[00:15:47] Cyd Holsclaw: So Jeff, you noticed it in your marriage. You noticed it in your counseling practice. 

Attachment in Faith and Spirituality

[00:15:51] Cyd Holsclaw: And then, uh, how did you notice it showing up in your life of faith with God?

[00:15:56] Jeff McMullen: it's a great question. I think, um, You know, I came to faith in middle school and I had a bunch of a group of guys share the gospel with me. And it, it made like intuitive sense to me. It was a sense of God loved me and died for me, um, through Jesus Christ on the cross. And I could receive that righteousness and that forgiveness.

And, um, I, I, um, It was more felt than taught to me like an intellectual sense. It just clicked. Um, but Soon, you know, I I kind of entered the christian world and i'm like, well You got to read your bible a lot and I would read my bible and it just felt that didn't I didn't feel anything, you know um But community was always important and I always felt the connection interconnectedness and that christ was in people And and I could see that well if christ is in people Them, they're in me.

He's in me. And, and I'm, and we're together, connected together. So that, that was kind of, I've always kind of felt it more than my intellectual side of it. But my Christian life, like, would often be highs and lows. I, I would, you know, I would feel close to God and I wouldn't. And then, you know, you live in a world that's broken and suffers.

It kind of really reveals even deeper uh How do you relate to god? So there were times that you know, I couldn't get a quote unquote feeling About being close to god and life was challenging What was going to be my anchor in this and and seminary is actually really helpful for me Um, I went to a pretty academic seminary.

I I felt pretty intimidated most of the time You But I think kind of Seminary saying despite what you feel despite what the philosophies of the world say We can we can really rest in god and what he says in the scriptures and um Now the other side of it was, I felt like it became academic, and, you know, it's pendulum swing, but in retrospect, for me now, it's been, um, I need, kind of, that left sided brain approach of logic, facts, Rationality to balance, to engage.

Well, I wouldn't say balance to engage and help to reform, uh, that jungle side that is, can be just all over the place.

[00:18:35] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. So you're speaking like, you know, and just for our listeners, again, the jungle tendency is to be really honed in on social and emotional content and, um, and so you're describing those highs and lows as like the emotions of your faith. Um, but then on the desert side is that sort of reliance on logic and rules and patterns.

And so your study in seminary, you found balancing the emotional rollercoaster, um, such that That's what I'm hearing

[00:19:04] Jeff McMullen: A hundred percent.

[00:19:05] Cyd Holsclaw: lows, you still had the logical linear tools that you gained in seminary to say, just cause I'm not feeling it right now. It doesn't mean that anything has changed about God.

[00:19:16] Jeff McMullen: And without that anchor, I think I would drift in. Yeah. I would just drift into my own jungle somewhere into the jungle. And.

[00:19:25] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:19:26] Jeff McMullen: Um, so the desert side has been, it has been important. And I mean, I'm taking this verse out of context, but it's in the desert where God often speaks in a soft, quiet voice to us.

And, and that's where I think that has been a journey for me is to hear what does that look like? So now in my own personal journey, I can see where I, I, I actually. the importance of time with God each day and kind of being really rooted in scripture and journaling. Um, I've gone through seasons of actually writing out passages of scripture because I need kind of that anchoring that is, is more than my experience, even though I'm going to more naturally lean into kind of the intuitive sense of what's going on, the relational

[00:20:16] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. And in that, and in that I, I, I see a lot of agency. And I remember during our cohort, that word agency felt really important to you. Can you say something about

[00:20:28] Jeff McMullen: Yeah, no, a hundred percent because I, I think with attachment style, if that, you know, when I'm in the jungle, it can feel like I have no agency. Cause I'm can be so busy trying to cling to closeness. And, uh, I, I remember thinking about, I don't know, maybe it was Jeff who did the video about, um, kind of the theological, the theological underpinnings of what you guys were doing and attached to God.

I found that very helpful, especially, you know, God had since before the fall, we've been given agency to move into the world. On behalf of Christ. And I am, and I kind of thought about that because we spent some time talking about that, is that I have a choice of how I'm going to enter in and navigate through the jungle.

It's not that I'm never going to navigate through the jungle. And when I'm in a bad place, I can sit there and go, you know what? I don't want to, I just want to avoid the jungle. And I can't, it's more of, I have agency of how I'm going to walk through this. Like who, who is God? Who does he say he is to me in the midst of this?

And can I name my experience? Um, Can I walk through the Psalms? Right? Can I walk through the Psalms? That's why I think Psalm 23 was really important of what we talked about. Like the call is not the desert or the, or the jungle. It's the pasture land. But God meets me in the midst of the jungle. To bring me through to his heart to his purposes and promises and it's not clean because I can be very perfectionistic Um, it's it's very messy, but he's with me in the midst of that.

[00:22:13] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah, and the agency you're choosing of like, I get to choose how I'm going to navigate this. This is my reality. I also get to name it by using your agency to name what's real. And then also using your agency to, to, to make different choices. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Another thing I remember you saying too was like, I see that I'm not crazy.

[00:22:37] Jeff McMullen: Yes, I think do you want me to reply to that or

[00:22:42] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I

[00:22:43] Jeff McMullen: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I I

[00:22:45] Cyd Holsclaw: That's a little, you know, that's a little like coaching, spiritual direction tactic. You just like say something and then you just wait for how the other person wants to take it. Do they want to take it up or do they want to like drop it? So there you go. I heard you say, I'm not crazy.

[00:23:00] Jeff McMullen: Well, I'm gonna say thank you. Um No, no, I yeah. No, I mean I think um, So I I come from a Reformed and Presbyterian tradition, and it has so many rich experiences that I've gained from this, right? Like, it's decent and in order. That's kind of one of the underlying principles. Logic and rationality.

Experience needs to be measured and critiqued against scripture. Uh, for somebody, uh, especially I would say, Stereotypically, like a male who feels this very deeply about certain things. Um, I I have, uh, often sidelined myself to say, okay, I have this crazy internal experience and I would talk to other friends or other people in my tradition who are not as emotive, probably lean more in the direction of being in the desert.

And here I am like, jungle man, Tarzan, Tarzan of the attachment land, right? Like I, I think, uh, it's been helpful just like through the attached to God, um, cohort. And then I also did Rooted as well, um, to just hear people say, yeah, this is where I am too. Um, you're not alone. Um, you know, I don't, I don't think I ever stated, Hey, I'm not crazy, crazy, but I was actually just really helped by other people sharing how their attachment style, uh, impacted them and flowed out into the world.

And, um, And just having you guys actually being like a safe, um, attuned presence to where we were at and not being afraid of that was really, really helpful for me. Um, Yeah, so it was just like the attached to God stuff. Like, you know, I was doing, you know, you know, I got some really good friends who of course are in similar situations who understand me and love me and my family loves me and understands me, but to talk about it in an more of an academic context, but was, you guys are definitely not academic in the sense, but we, we had some reading and learning, but also some processing together just was like one of those pieces to the puzzle of taking that next step into, um, I think taking, yeah, all thoughts captive in a proper sense about who I am, um, and leaning in by faith to who God has created me to be.

[00:25:35] Cyd Holsclaw: Leaning into who I am.

[00:25:38] Jeff McMullen: Yeah.

[00:25:38] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Integrating Attachment with Counseling and Faith

[00:25:39] Geoff Holsclaw: so I have a question, maybe an integrative one. You started off by talking about how, um, in your counseling center, You know, you have the modalities and you have counselors, uh, but really you're trying to usher them into the presence of

Jesus, the true I know spiritual directors feel the

same way.

Like, oh, I'm a spiritual director, but I'm really just trying to facilitate the spirit who is directing, right? So how, is there a way to kind of, um, take that same language, but talk about attachment and like Jesus. And he is the one who's, I don't know if you've kind of like, Done some of that work to, but, uh, I don't know.

I'm just throwing it out there.

[00:26:19] Jeff McMullen: no, I think it's a great question.

[00:26:20] Geoff Holsclaw: This Jesus, our true attachment figure, or does he,

are we supposed to usher people through our attachments? And I, I,

mean, we do speak of the good shepherd of Jesus as the good shepherd, but, Hmm,

[00:26:33] Jeff McMullen: a lot of, well, I mean, any problem that we have is at a horizontal level and also a vertical level. Right? So the struggles in my marriage. Reveal what's happening in my relationship with also my struggles in God, right in my relationship with God So like i'm going to see that as well Like when somebody comes in and sits down and says to me, hey, i'm struggling.

I'm just depressed. I'm anxious I have relationship problems um I think it's also like a relating problem, uh, to God. And, uh, you know, I'm not going to talk about that the very first time necessarily. I think context and where the person is and allowing them to lead the conversation is one of the most essential things in this.

But I think every conversation at some point in some way comes back to how do I understand how I'm connected to God? Who is God to me in the midst of what I'm facing and struggling? And I think it's really helpful for, to people like, for us to have discussions about, well, sometimes God's feels closed.

Sometimes he doesn't, I don't know what to do when I'm all over the place or, um, God just doesn't feel present. Um, I, I'm not, you know, I, I think, um, I want, you know, people want him to be close. I'm thinking about some, some folks that I've walked with over the years that You know, if they're in a really stressful situation in their lives, their attachment style, like I talk about, is gonna come oozing out, right?

It's like stepping on a ketchup packet and you got a pair of white pants on. It's going to come, it's going to, it's going to come up on it. Right. And, and you, and you sit there and go, how did that get there? So I think just in kind of gentle ways that, If you kind of lean more of in a desert context, God's kind of maybe feel, it's gonna make sense that God maybe doesn't seem close in the midst of what you're experiencing.

And that's okay. Well, let's kind of talk through what would you like God? How would you like God's presence to be present with you in the midst of this? Or when you're kind of all over the place in the jungle world, and you're stressed out. I want to kind of gently understand what would it look like to be anchored in Christ and have a sense of his experience, um, that he is that anchoring presence, even though you're emotively, you might be all over the place.

So I, I think, um, I think that might mean certain times saying, Hey, have you considered journaling about this or, um, and, and writing a letter to Jesus about this or, um, you know, maybe a particular scripture passage that may be important to folks. I'm thinking maybe in the desert attachment of Hebrews four, right?

Like God really, really is, there's sympathy towards you. That's, that doesn't mean he looks, he looks at you with compassion and what you're facing. What, what would it mean for you to experience the compassion of Christ in the midst of what you're experiencing? I don't know if that's helpful.

[00:29:49] Geoff Holsclaw: That's super. I love it.

[00:29:52] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I think it's really helpful, um, you know, for listeners to, I think to hear like the, because that's one of the things we always emphasizing in the cohort, right, is you recognize where you are, and then you try to use tools from borrow tools from the landscape that's sort of opposite yours in order to try to build.

Grow more towards the pasture. And so as you're naming those situations, you're saying, okay, for someone in the jungle, the tools that need to be borrowed toward the pasture come out of the desert and the desert, you know, needs to borrow tools out of the jungle. And I think that, you know, you mentioned earlier before we started recording that it's not like one is better than the other.

Or, you know, or that, that one is healthier than the other. They're, they're both insecure in their own ways. And then the invitation for all of us is to grow into the pasture and how we kind of need each other's experiences to help, uh, help us understand what we can do to grow. Yeah.

[00:30:52] Jeff McMullen: a hundred percent. And that, and that's why I am thankful for what you guys have offered because you've given a context to actually wrestle with that. And, you know, am I implementing everything we talked about? No, but there are a couple of key things. Sorry, Jeff, didn't mean to offend you there, but, uh, like, but I, I think just taking away one or two things from this has just been really helpful.

And I love that you guys provide like the videos to go back and watch them. And, um, the handouts, like I thought, like just even the paper about like, Hey, this is what the brain is. And, you know, kind of, uh, neuroscience for dummies has just been super helpful, uh, for somebody like me,

[00:31:38] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

[00:31:39] Geoff Holsclaw: Excellent. Well, any last thoughts or exhortations or scathing criticisms you'd like to leave with us?

[00:31:46] Jeff McMullen: scathing criticisms, I will leave for offline, but, uh, I, I, I, I, no, I, I just want to say, if you, if this is something you're interested in doing. the Attach to God cohort. Just go do it. Try it out. I think it's awesome.

[00:32:01] Geoff Holsclaw: Thank you so much.

Thank you. Well, I'm glad that we're been able to kind of become friends and

hang out a little bit. He's got some kids going to Calvin, so he gets to come out to Grand Rapids and then we can have breakfast. Um, Also for you listeners, uh, thank you for listening. You could please, uh, like, and subscribe wherever you, uh, watch.

You can watch us on YouTube. Um, but please, yeah, share it around. We don't have any publicity. It's just you guys. So thank you so much. And Jeff, thank you for

being on with us Yeah. And, and Jeff, in case people are in the Baltimore area, how do they find you or your counseling

[00:32:38] Jeff McMullen: yeah. Thanks. Um, Life Counseling Center dot o r g. Feel free to reach out to us and you can fill out our inquiry form there. Give us a call. Email us. Love to help you in any way we can.

[00:32:52] Cyd Holsclaw: Awesome.

[00:32:53] Geoff Holsclaw: All

[00:32:53] Cyd Holsclaw: All right.

[00:32:54] Jeff McMullen: Thanks guys. Yeah. Oh, geez. I can't believe you said that. Oh, let's go Ravens. Oh,

[00:33:01] Geoff Holsclaw: See

ya. 

[00:33:02] Jeff McMullen: Thanks.